The Ultimate PDI Podcast
Thinking about becoming a driving instructor? Or already working your way through the PDI process?
In this special episode, Terry is joined by Emma Cottington and Tom Stenson for a comprehensive look at what it really takes to become an ADI.
They explore the Part 1, 2 and 3 process, why training shouldn’t simply be about passing tests, blended training, choosing the right trainer, and whether a trainee licence is right for you.
The conversation also tackles the minimum 40 hours of training, gaining real teaching experience, training costs, franchise agreements, going independent, running your own business and the importance of continued development.
Whether you’re considering becoming an instructor or already somewhere along the journey, this episode is designed to help you ask better questions, avoid common pitfalls and make more informed decisions.
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Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking.
Speaker B:With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker A:About what drives them.
Speaker C:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.
Speaker C:This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better driving school.
Speaker C:As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook.
Speaker C:I'm delighted to be here, but even more delighted that you have chosen to listen.
Speaker C:Because today we have the ultimate PDI podcast.
Speaker C:That's right, we're doing an episode especially for PDIs.
Speaker C:So if you are currently training or considering becoming a driving instructor, this is just for you.
Speaker C:If on the other hand, you are currently a driving instructor, you can still learn from it, but even better, share it with anyone you know that is thinking about becoming one.
Speaker C:I would also argue that if you're considering training PDI's, this would make a really good listen as well.
Speaker C:And who better to join me on this episode than Emma Cottington and Tom Stenson?
Speaker C:But just before you listen, allow me to point you in the direction of the instructor performance and psychology membership.
Speaker C:This membership is especially for people who want to do more than the minimum.
Speaker C:People that want to go above teaching the absolute basics and doing nothing else.
Speaker C:Yes, we do help you with the standards check and with the part three, but we also help you look at how to bring road safety into lessons, how to improve and grow your business, how to improve your coaching techniques, and even how to look after your mental well being as a driving instructor.
Speaker C:To find out More, go to patreon.com theinstructor or use the link in the show notes.
Speaker C:But for now.
Speaker C:So let's get stuck into the show.
Speaker A:Well, I'm delighted to be joined today by two people that I rate incredibly highly and I would consider friends.
Speaker A:First of all, Emma Cottington.
Speaker A:How are we doing, Emma?
Speaker D:Good afternoon, Terry.
Speaker D:I'm good, how are you?
Speaker A:All the better seeing your smiley face.
Speaker A:And we're also joined by Mr. Tom Stenson.
Speaker A:How are you, Tom?
Speaker B:I am awesome, thank you very much, Terry.
Speaker A:So I'm delighted that both can join me today as we basically dive into the PDI situation and discuss through what it takes to become a driving instructor.
Speaker A:The process, the mentality, the mindset and all that kind of wonderful stuff.
Speaker A:So I thought we'd just skim over in the show, the eligibility aspect of it.
Speaker A:I don't think we need to spend too much on this, but I'm just going to run through it and then give you guys a chance.
Speaker A:Just if there's anything you want to touch on that before we move on to the process and then we'll look at things like the training, how you train, where you go, how we decide who's right, whether you go on pink or any of that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:So first of all, eligibility is a word I struggle to say, but I've pronounced it twice now, so that's really good.
Speaker A:First of all, you need to be 21 or over, you need to be a full license holder for three or more years.
Speaker A:You can't really been banned or disqualified from driving in the last four years or have more than five penalty points and you are highly unlikely to be accepted if you have been convicted of sexual or violent assault, financial or drug related crimes are banned from working with children.
Speaker A:So that's the basic criteria from the dvsa.
Speaker A:Tom, anything that stands out to you there, Anything you want to on?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think my, my add on is and I think this, this should come under the eligibility of it.
Speaker B:I'm just impressed I said that on my first go is the we.
Speaker B:I've seen quite a lot over the years where people want to come into the industry because they like driving and I think in order to be eligible to do this job you need to recognise that it is very much an educational role and that our driving for ourselves is quite minimal compared to us being able to teach that.
Speaker B:So even if you've come from another job that has had driving as a baseline, I think that's good because we talk about transferable skills.
Speaker B:But it should really be that people are coming into the industry because they want to change road safety and they want a positive effect as well as educating the new and not so new drivers that we're going to have on the road.
Speaker A:Interesting because it was one of the reasons I became an instructor was because I like driving.
Speaker A:And then as you say pretty quick when you realize, oh hold on, I'm not driving.
Speaker A:And also when you are driving it's often a demonstration which is less fun.
Speaker A:Emma, anything you want to add on to this?
Speaker D:Only something similar to what Tom said, but I have always been baffled over the years why at that eligibility point we don't have something where we can have a question bank where you will select one of the answers and that will kind of give you the type of person you are and whether you're suited to the role that that type of just to give people an idea.
Speaker D:So similar to what Tom said as to what the role is and how they would fit into that.
Speaker D:Almost like this is a statement and then four answers as to your likely response to those statements.
Speaker A:What's like a personality test.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, a little bit like that.
Speaker D:But.
Speaker D:But around the job, around what.
Speaker D:What's needed.
Speaker A:You know, I think that could be interesting.
Speaker A:But the thing that springs to mind straight away is the word patience.
Speaker A:Because it's something I hear a lot when we talk about instructors.
Speaker A:People say I won't have the patience to do that.
Speaker A:My instructor was really patient.
Speaker A:And when I think about it, I don't actually think instructors need to be that patient.
Speaker A:I think the pupil thinks you're being patient, but that's because they.
Speaker A:They're the one doing it.
Speaker A:They're the one that might, I don't know, get it wrong five times in a row.
Speaker A:So they think we're being patient, but we're actually just helping them.
Speaker A:We don't feel it.
Speaker A:So let me ask you what, what would be the quality?
Speaker A:If you were picking one quality that would be makes a driving instructor suitable or makes someone suitable to be driving a truck, what would that quality be?
Speaker D:Curiosity for me.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly what Emma's just said.
Speaker A:Curiosity.
Speaker A:I like it.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:Do you know what that could.
Speaker A:Well, that could be in the eligibility criteria.
Speaker A:It should be the first question, are you curious?
Speaker A:And anyone that says no gets dumped out.
Speaker B:Okay, so can I just add a bit on top of that?
Speaker B:Because I think there needs to be a little bit of context.
Speaker B:And for me, the curiosity.
Speaker B:I'd like to see where you come from with this, Emma.
Speaker B:The curiosity isn't just about I need to be curious about my learner.
Speaker B:The curiosity is about I need to be curious about my development.
Speaker B:I need to be curious about actually, are there other methods that I'm using that might be more beneficial, which is our development.
Speaker B:And that's why I think curiosity is such a great one, because I think it encompasses everything that or the majority of everything that we should be doing as good driving instructors is being curious to what our learners are saying and how they're saying it, but also being curious to our own development.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think if Terry had given me two words, I'd have gone with curiosity and transparency.
Speaker D:And, and I put those two hand in hand in a similar vein of I, I don't believe.
Speaker D:And it maybe is just a personal sort of opinion and belief that I can't help somebody else develop their self awareness if I'm not good.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:With my own self awareness.
Speaker D:So that curiosity has to start with me in order for me to be able to be curious with somebody else.
Speaker D:Because if I'm closed off and not transparent with me, then I can't how can I expect that person to be that towards me as well?
Speaker D:And then we could go down the whole vein of rapport and relationship building and humans and values and beliefs, but we don't want to be here all afternoon.
Speaker A:You might not want to.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, we'll.
Speaker A:Probably dig into that more later on, but.
Speaker A:No, I think that's good.
Speaker A:I think that's good.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think I would probably look at like communication skills and good communication skills, but maybe that's something we build up more as we go anyway.
Speaker A:But anyway, that's the eligibility stuff.
Speaker A:Let's have a quick look at the process, then we'll.
Speaker A:I'll run through this and we'll.
Speaker A:We'll dig into it more as we go.
Speaker A:So initially you'll need to get your dbs, which is a disclosure and bar, in service check, and you'd apply to be an instructor.
Speaker A:The part one then consists of the theory and the hazard perception.
Speaker A:The part two is a driving ability test.
Speaker A:Then you would need to decide whether you're going on to a pinker badge, which is essentially like an apprenticeship almost, or whether you're not doing that.
Speaker A:I'm just doing training separately.
Speaker A:You've then got your part three, which is your instructional availability, instructional ability, and then you join the register.
Speaker A:Once you pass that, and that costs you £300, renew every four years.
Speaker A:So that is the kind of basic outline of the process tomorrow.
Speaker A:Is there anything you want to touch on there?
Speaker B:I mean, the one thing that I was thinking about as you were talking through that is that the, once you, once you pass your part three, it.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not saying to try and scare people, but I think it's good that they're aware of it.
Speaker B:Passing your part three doesn't automatically mean you're going to be accepted on the ADI register.
Speaker B:You could be refused because of things that have happened.
Speaker B:So I know we talk about this later and about the professionalism and I'm not sure many people look at driving instructors as professionals, but I'd like to think we are.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, that's the only point that I would add in there is just to make sure that at each of those stages and even once you are qualified, being removed from the register due to not being fit and proper can potentially happen at any point.
Speaker A:An interesting point, actually, because I think there is that assumption there.
Speaker A:You, you pass or you qualify and then you immediately get taken by register.
Speaker A:But when you.
Speaker A:When you qualify or when you pass, you have to apply to Become an issuer.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Emma, anything you want to touch on?
Speaker D:Again, I think personal opinions coming in here, that is the process.
Speaker D:Do I like the process?
Speaker D:Not always.
Speaker D:I think people stick too rigidly to the way you've just itemized it, if you like.
Speaker D:The reality is it's not like that, or it shouldn't really be like that.
Speaker D:But if we're talking about the processes in we have to tick those boxes, then, yes, I agree with all of it.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker A:It's an interesting point because it's.
Speaker A:One of the things I wanted to speak about today was that process and how a lot of trainers now are looking at kind of blending that together, which is, I think, what you just alluded to.
Speaker A:So do you want to expand on that about maybe what you don't like about it and how it could and potentially should be done differently?
Speaker D:Yeah, I think it becomes.
Speaker D:It becomes too much of a checklist.
Speaker D:The reality is we can't do a Part three if we don't do Part two, and we can't do a Part two without Part one.
Speaker D:They come together.
Speaker D:They're not separate entities.
Speaker D:None of them are separate entities.
Speaker D:And although they are tested separately, because the DVSA probably haven't got another way of testing them without testing them the.
Speaker B:Way that they do.
Speaker D:I suppose, again, we could all argue that as well, but.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker D:The process is separate from the teaching.
Speaker D:For me, the training is separate from the process.
Speaker D:So I know I. I have done it in the past where it's been, let's do part one, let's do part two, let's do part three.
Speaker D:You know, I've been a trainer for 10 years now, and that was typically how I started doing it, very quickly sort of changed it, and because it didn't make sense to me at the time that when I'm doing some Part two training that we're not discussing part three at this point, or, you know, that part one hasn't.
Speaker D:Just because we've passed it has now gone.
Speaker D:It hasn't.
Speaker D:It's still very much part of what we're doing and it's going to crop up again in Part three.
Speaker D:It just makes sense for me that it's all blended together because each component is part of each other.
Speaker D:So, yeah, the process is like that from, in my head, a DVSA perspective, but the process of training for me shouldn't be like that.
Speaker A:It was how I was trained, you know, and I think a lot of people listening to this will have been trained that way, or the PDIs will be being brought in this way, which was.
Speaker A:It was very much like, here's an app, or here's a, you know, whatever, go and pass you part one, then come back and we'll provide you training for part two.
Speaker A:And I don't think it works, but I want to just push you a little bit on it and ask Yerma why, how you blend it together, how do we do that?
Speaker A:When.
Speaker A:When it is structured 1, 2, 3, the way it is, but blending it.
Speaker D:Together in training sessions, it's a difficult question.
Speaker D:How do I do it?
Speaker D:Because I just do it like it's a.
Speaker D:It's a difficult question.
Speaker D:Like it's just a really natural process for me now.
Speaker D:Now, whether that's because I've grown to.
Speaker D:To be natural that way or whether it really doesn't register in my head how to separate it out because, because they're so interlinked, it's a natural process.
Speaker D:And generally in the car, or certainly in my car, it's.
Speaker D:It's kind of just part of the conversation.
Speaker D:It's part of the whatever we're doing, whatever we're working on, it sort of blended around whatever.
Speaker D:Let's.
Speaker D:Let's say we're working on a particular skill or something in the car.
Speaker D:The conversations very much blended around all of the components and, and how part one weaves into this and how part two weaves into this, how part three weaves into this.
Speaker D:And, you know, going back to that transparency that I was talking about before, transparency is a massive part of my training sessions, because my training sessions don't work without it, because quite often I'm using some skills in the session and it's good for me to then be transparent with the PDI and say, this skill that I've just used in this conversation is a skill that you'll be using with your learner drivers when you go on your pink badge or whatever it might be.
Speaker D:So it's just very much sort of blended conversational communication.
Speaker D:So, yeah, I don't, I don't think I could physically separate it now.
Speaker D:I just don't think I'm capable of doing that anymore.
Speaker A:I want to ask you one more question before I bring Tom in on this.
Speaker A:And I want to ask you, let's imagine a pdi.
Speaker A:Someone is running up inquiring about becoming an instructor, guessing you wouldn't turn around and say to that person, off you go.
Speaker A:Go and do your part one.
Speaker A:Here's a book, come back and then we'll do your part two.
Speaker A:But what would you say if if someone come and said I'm gonna go and do my part one, then I'm gonna come to you with part two.
Speaker A:How would you have that discussion again?
Speaker D:I think it's conversational.
Speaker D:We've gotta remember at that point the, the person that I'm having that conversation with potentially might not know another way.
Speaker D:You know, so for me now it's conversational around.
Speaker D:I think I would start with intrigue and interest as to why they want to do it that way.
Speaker D:You know, what's the purpose, what's the goal with that?
Speaker D:You know, so going straight in with my own coaching skills of well, what's, what's your reasoning behind that?
Speaker D:And then obviously without knowing what that PDI would say in response to that, the conversation then would, would explore and expand from there.
Speaker D:I would be working with the goal of trying to, I want to say change the mind, but that's not necessarily what I mean because that's not my role.
Speaker D:It's.
Speaker D:My role isn't to do that.
Speaker D:But I would certainly be of the viewpoint that this person, my way of training might be a complete blind spot for them.
Speaker D:So I would want to bring what I offer into that conversation and have they thought about it this way.
Speaker D:And actually I'm just going to give you this information.
Speaker D:I'm going to let you see how I train.
Speaker D:I'm going to, you know, maybe potentially even invite them along to another PDI session to observe potentially if that works for everybody, and invite them to just sort of have, have a little bit of time to think before they go down the route that they've approached me with.
Speaker D:At first.
Speaker A:You're sort of one of the founders of drive up training and I've just realized that we've got drive up and up driver training.
Speaker A:I haven't thought non stop before, so that's now we use me greatly.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're one of the founders of drive up training.
Speaker A:If someone comes along to you wanting to become an instructor, do you send them away to do part one and then bring them back for part two?
Speaker A:Or do you look at this blended approach?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean as Emma said earlier, it's about them training as a driving instructor.
Speaker B:That's what they're doing is training as a driving instructor.
Speaker B:You just happen to have to do part one, part two and part three?
Speaker B:Well, those are exams.
Speaker B:They have nothing to do with training so.
Speaker B:And they shouldn't really be part of it either.
Speaker B:However, we know from years of history that training often revolves around the test for many things in many, many different Organizations and many different avenues of, of life.
Speaker B:So yeah, a lot of what we try and do is a blended approach as much as possible.
Speaker B:And the reason I say as much as possible, there are some situations where we might just focus on one area because that is what that client needs at that time and overloading with information might be detrimental to their training.
Speaker B:But that's just the same as we would do in any kind of education.
Speaker B:So like Emma was saying there, if I've got a trainee that says to me I'm going to go and do part one and then come back to you for part two, or worse, I'm going to do part one and part two on my own and come to you for part three.
Speaker B:What we generally would try and do at drive up is two things.
Speaker B:One, we want them to come and observe us giving a driving lesson beforehand because then they get to meet us as a trainer and see what it's like.
Speaker B:They also get to see what a modern day driving lesson looks like because a lot of trainees, the only time they saw a driving test was 25 years ago when they took their own.
Speaker B:The second thing that we would do generally once they've they've got their PRN number is we would organize an in car session to see where their standard of driving is.
Speaker B:So although that's primarily an assessment to see where their standard of driving is, we're starting to bring in the foundational knowledge which is the theory test and the hazard perception.
Speaker B:But we're also bringing in future states which is you're getting to see how I use these coaching scenarios or how I've used instruction to help you and now I'm getting you to reflect on whether that worked or not.
Speaker B:So they get to see what these techniques are and they get to live them and feel what it's like to be in that situation.
Speaker B:So that for me, even though I might not be going and saying to them this is an absolutely blended approach and you are going to be doing this, they don't know any different because they're getting elements from every section of it, even though the focus might be on an assessment for their driving.
Speaker A:For the folks listening, what's a prn?
Speaker B:Your personal reference number.
Speaker B:So once you have your DBS and you apply to become a pdi and that is one thing, Sorry, I'm gonna have a little bit of a rant now.
Speaker B:This is one thing that really annoys me is so many people don't realize that the moment you put your application in and get your PRN number, you are a pdi.
Speaker B:You don't have to have a trainee license to be a PDI and I. Oh, sorry, rant over.
Speaker B:So once you get your PRN number you are a potential driving instructor and that is your personal reference number and that lasts for life.
Speaker B:So even if you are unsuccessful and you have to wait two years and start your process again, you'll get the same PRN number that you had previously.
Speaker A:Also please, you said potential driving instructor because we've said PDI a few times and not kind of explain what that is.
Speaker A:And that's what it is, a potential driving instructor.
Speaker A:Just while we're on that note, for anyone listening that isn't aware, an ADI isn't an advanced driving instructor, it's an approved driving instructor.
Speaker A:But Tom, one more follow up question because you mentioned there a modern driving lesson as opposed to historical driving lesson.
Speaker A:What's the difference?
Speaker A:What would if you sat in both, if you went back 20 years and sat in one, sat in one now what would be the difference?
Speaker B:I'm going to change that.
Speaker B:What should be the difference is that I think the old school driving lesson was very much hierarchical in I'm the driving instructor and I know everything about driving and I'm just going to tell you what you need to do and if you don't listen, it's because you're stupid and you don't listen Where a modern driver trainer, a modern instructor is still the expert in driving but we are not the expert in the client sat next to us.
Speaker B:So we need to be inquisitive and we need to be curious because that learner is going to bring their own experiences and their own thoughts and feelings to driving this vehicle.
Speaker B:And in simple terms we know that post test people very rarely crash because they can't control the car.
Speaker B:It's because they usually can't control their emotions in some way or their emotions are too strong and they haven't learned how to deal with that.
Speaker B:So this is a modern day lesson should very much center around the client as opposed to just shut up and listen.
Speaker B:I'm going to tell you what to do and if you do, if you do what you told, you'll pass your test.
Speaker B:But you know, I couldn't, I couldn't care less whether my learners pass the test.
Speaker B:I don't want them to go and crash when they pass.
Speaker A:You kind of mentioned before about people becoming instructors and not necessarily knowing what to expect and not knowing any different other than what's stated on the DVSA website.
Speaker A:I'm curious what Are some of the misconceptions you maybe see quite regularly or from people from either people wanted to be instructors or actually people that are currently PDIs, you know, training at the minute.
Speaker D:I think the, the general feedback is, I know I'm generalizing here, but is this isn't what I expected it to be.
Speaker D:I hear that quite a lot.
Speaker D:I think there's a perception that we potentially drive around all day just telling people to turn left and right and, and that we use the dual controls all the time and that's what keeps us safe and that we annoy the general public.
Speaker D:And I think that that's the, the generalization and I think that going back to what's been said earlier on, people potentially come in because they like driving.
Speaker D:And because they like driving, there's maybe a little bit of optimism bias going on that they're good drivers.
Speaker D:And because they're good drivers, that must mean that they, they can show somebody else how to be a good driver too.
Speaker D:So I think there's a lot of misconception around that.
Speaker D:And then that leads to, you know, when we start looking at the client centered stuff and we start looking at the curiosity stuff and we start looking at the client is the person who has all the answers.
Speaker D:I think that becomes a bit of an alien concept to start with because it's not the perception that they've main, they've.
Speaker D:They've come in with, so they're not prepared already for that to be part of the conversation in the car between ourselves and them because there's no belief there that that's how we do the job.
Speaker A:This could potentially stem from the way that we as a kind of culture, if you like, approach the learning to drive.
Speaker A:Not the becoming, but learning strive.
Speaker A:And then the culture is still very much get a download of Theory app, you know, just do that in your own time and then you'll pass your test and you'll learn to drive after your test.
Speaker A:Do you think that's where this comes from?
Speaker D:Yeah, I definitely think there's a, there's a cultural thing that's going on.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker D:I think driving has become a rite of passage.
Speaker D:You know, I look at and I, and I kind of put my human behavior hat on because that's where my passion is.
Speaker D:We're not meant to drive.
Speaker D:We're not meant to drive.
Speaker D:We're not meant to do this.
Speaker D:We're not, we, we weren't biologically or genetically meant to drive.
Speaker D:So we are actually biologically and genetically going against us like humanness in order to get in a machine and drive it around the world with other people driving machines too.
Speaker D:And I think it's become this rite of passage in that everybody can do it no matter what.
Speaker D:And it's, it's not always the case, you know, it's not always the case.
Speaker D:It might not be suitable for everybody.
Speaker D:And I think we do get that generalization of you turn 17 in the vast majority.
Speaker D:I know it's not the case for everybody, but for the vast majority, you turn 17, you might even get your provisional license for your birthday.
Speaker D:That year is a load of lessons.
Speaker D:And I expect you to have passed your driving Test before you're 18 with no consideration of the, you know, the fact that we're driving.
Speaker D:We're about to put our teenage children into weapons.
Speaker D:Like, there doesn't seem to be any concept of that.
Speaker D:And I think it's, it's a, it's still a very much an uphill battle to change that public perception because we're sadly a minority in that voicing of that perception.
Speaker A:What would you say to someone, Tom, who is listening to this, and let's say they're either considering becoming an instructor and all this sounds like newfangled walk nonsense, or maybe they're training at the minute and their driving school has sent them away to the part one and now they're doing the part two with no discussion.
Speaker A:It's just like instruction rather than clients that are learning, you know, people with us either experiencing it or have that mindset.
Speaker A:What, what message would you give to those people?
Speaker B:I might sound a little bit controversial here, but your, your first one was somebody who thought all of this newfangled stuff was a bit woke.
Speaker B:My answer would be, maybe this is not the right industry for you, if that's what you think.
Speaker B:However, your other point was, if somebody has already been trained in perhaps an old school way, comes back to what Emma said earlier, which is about being curious that there are, you know, the terminology, there's many ways to skin a cat.
Speaker B:Not that I think you should ever skin a cat, by the way.
Speaker B:And that is just such an important thing.
Speaker B:We have to, as driving instructors and any industry, have this growth mindset of, you know, we're always learning and we should always learn.
Speaker B:And so you may be being trained in a specific way.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean you shouldn't go out and experiment and go and experience other things.
Speaker B:We, at our driving school, we suggest that our trainees go to other trainers because that is important.
Speaker B:I'm happy, I'm Happy to admit that there are specific ways that I will explain things because that works for my brain.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean that person is going to understand it.
Speaker B:So they might go to Emma and Emma uses slightly different words but the same context and it makes sense.
Speaker B:Well, my role is to help that trainee develop and if that means sending them somewhere else to gain additional stuff, why shouldn't I be doing that?
Speaker A:Anything we want to add onto this idea of blended training or potentially the, the reluctance towards it,.
Speaker B:I would just quickly add in for the, for those listening.
Speaker B:If you haven't had blended bland, if you haven't had blended training, that doesn't mean you're going to be unsuccessful at part three and it doesn't mean you're going to be a rubbish instructor.
Speaker B:It can and it has for many years been a foundation of the minimum that people require.
Speaker B:What we're trying to say here is there are, through lots of evidence and practice, you know, Emma and myself have been trainers for many years.
Speaker B:We, we've been in the thick of it.
Speaker B:We've.
Speaker B:We can see the benefits of having it done this way.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean that it's wrong if you don't, but it is wrong.
Speaker D:And I think I'd, I'd add to that in that, you know, we, we're all, we're all individuals and, you know, sort of echoing a little bit of what Tom said in that what works for me doesn't work for Tom, what works for Tom doesn't work for me.
Speaker D:And, you know, and so on.
Speaker D:It doesn't change the context, it doesn't change what we're all trying to work towards as a collective.
Speaker D:But we've got to find, we've got to be adaptable to be able to find different ways for different people.
Speaker D:Because if I, I could continue to hammer home what works for me, it's still not, no matter how I put that, it's not going to be received by the person who needs to hear it the way that works for them.
Speaker D:So it's up to me as the trainer to adapt to that person, not the other way around.
Speaker D:I don't require the trainee to adapt to me because I'm not the person learning and the.
Speaker D:We don't know what we don't know until we know it like.
Speaker D:And it's, it's up to us to expose those blind spots and the stuff that people don't know.
Speaker D:You know, a really, a question I ask quite a lot and I get a very puzzled look in the car from learners and trainees is, well, what don't you know about that?
Speaker D:And we often kind of get like a bit of a blank, a blank expression at first because, like, well, if I don't know it, I can't tell you.
Speaker D:And I get that, but then we've gotta, you know, I, I am just one person with one life experience and I can only bring what I know into the car because I've also got blind spots and shadows going on and I only know what I know.
Speaker D:You know, one of the first things I'll tell anybody who gets in my car is I don't have the answer to everything.
Speaker D:I don't know everything.
Speaker D:There will be a time at some point that you might ask me a question and I will not know what the answer is, but I'll help you find it.
Speaker D:You know, that's my role, is to help you to develop and train and become the person you want to be as a driving instructor.
Speaker D:There is, there is context to that, there is syllabus to that, I guess, but how you or what you become around that is who you want to be and I'm here to help you do that.
Speaker A:Want to touch back on one thing you said there because I think you kind of brushed over it slightly, which was the idea of what we working towards.
Speaker A:And I think the key thing here is to make sure that if you're a pdi, you're working towards the same goal as your trainer.
Speaker A:Because the PDI's goal could simply be to pass a part three as quick and efficiently as possible.
Speaker A:Whereas your goal as a trainer might be to create the best instructor possible so that they can go off and create safe drivers rather than as pass as quickly as possible.
Speaker A:So is that something that you would be advising to anyone listening to this to make sure that a.
Speaker A:The trainer is aware of what you're working towards, but just to make sure that I suppose also you're aware of what you're working towards.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think it's equally important that both people in the trainer trainee role know what we're working towards, but I think it's equally important that you check in regularly on that because it changes.
Speaker D:You know, you might start with a trainee whose goal is to get through the part three as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Speaker D:But then as they start to delve into stuff, the time isn't as pressured for them because they're like, actually, I want to know more about this and actually I want to be better about this before I go into it.
Speaker D:So their goals and, and things shift as well.
Speaker D:So I think it's important that you, yes, you do set a goal.
Speaker D:I think it's good to have a goal.
Speaker D:I'm not always a.
Speaker D:What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker D:I'm not always sort of going to be fixed on a goal setting in the car that is rigid.
Speaker D:I tend to not have a rigid goal setting.
Speaker D:I want something that we're working towards because if we're not working towards something we could get very lost.
Speaker D:So it's good to have something to be working towards but also to know that at any point this is adaptable and it might change.
Speaker D:And the communication and the vulnerability is important because it's okay for us to change and it's important that they know it's okay to change as much as we know that as the trainer as well.
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Speaker A:Discounts as they become available with standards.
Speaker F: Checks due to return in: Speaker F:Ensure your success with Kit Knowledgeable Instructor Training, the UK's most comprehensive instructor training provider.
Speaker F: ch between lessons, make sure: Speaker A:It might be worthwhile at this point actually to share why we became instructors and and therefore how we've changed.
Speaker A:So yeah, I suppose relatively briefly Tom, because I think we've actually got a similar instance in this.
Speaker A:Tom, kind of what, what was your reasoning behind coming and instructor those many years ago and how was that changed.
Speaker B:I mean, I've said this before to many people.
Speaker B:My intention was to never be in the industry.
Speaker B:Fifteen years later I came into it because I was, I was self employed at the time.
Speaker B:I wasn't kind of enjoying what I was doing quite as much, but I didn't know what I wanted to go into.
Speaker B:Some friends at the time were driving instructors and said, you enjoy driving, why don't you do this?
Speaker B:And I suppose my added bit in which frustrates me a little bit now, I came from a sports coaching background to do with training and things like that.
Speaker B:And actually I was kind of told to leave a lot of that at the front door when I became an instructor.
Speaker B:So my intention was to do the job for a couple of years and then kind of find something bigger and better.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:A bit wrong to say this, but I kind of get a little bit annoyed for people who come to the industry not taking it as seriously as I do now.
Speaker B:But I have to understand that I came from that process and so I have to correct myself and recognize there are going to be a percentage of people who come into it with perhaps not the long term in plan, but do end up with that.
Speaker B:And if you'd have asked me when I first qualified, will you be doing this 15 years later, will you be doing what you're doing?
Speaker B:I never would have imagined Wednesday this week I spent the whole day at Bristol in a DVSA meeting.
Speaker B:I never imagined I would have been doing that 15 years ago when I first qualified.
Speaker B:And this is to try and put the industry in a place where I and other people think that it needs to be.
Speaker B:And you know, that, that for me is, is what's kept me in it as well as road safety for me.
Speaker D:I like looking at the eligibility thing.
Speaker D:I was 21 and over, I was just 21.
Speaker D:I remember I wanted to be in a driving instructor.
Speaker D:Ironically now looking back, because I enjoyed my driving lessons and it's only now that I actually realized that those driving lessons weren't actually that good.
Speaker D:But it, it at the time I really enjoyed them.
Speaker D:He was, he was a nice guy, you know, and, and, and I enjoyed learning to drive and I, I knew when I was learning to drive that I wanted to be a driving instructor.
Speaker D:So I was only 17.
Speaker D:17.
Speaker D:I passed the day after my 18th birthday.
Speaker D:So 17 when I, and it's interesting and similar to what Tom's just said, I've got to kind of step back sometimes and realize that the things that might bug me sometimes were me and I didn't have, I didn't have that perception the same as these people don't have that perception now because I vividly remember I come from that.
Speaker D:I'm almost 17 years qualified now so I'm, I'm really showing my age there too.
Speaker D:But I, I vividly remember it was the, the time where red was huge.
Speaker D:There was everywhere, there was on the adverts, on the telly, you know, everywhere you went you could see red driving school and that's who I ended up signing up to because I was naive, didn't look at it, just went for who was putting their advertising in my face.
Speaker D:And I vividly remember phoning them when I was 19 because I didn't know that I had to be 21 on over.
Speaker D:I didn't know that and, and I didn't.
Speaker D:I unheld my license for three and a half years.
Speaker D:At this point I'd only had it for a year like so there was all of this stuff.
Speaker D:So I started to qualify.
Speaker D:So I, previous to this I was in retail management and I actually loved retail management.
Speaker D:I actually loved my job.
Speaker D:I think it's because I was surrounded by people and I love being surrounded by people and things like that and talking to people and getting to know people.
Speaker D:I was just kind of also aware that from a personal perspective I was going to want a family at some point as well and I'd kind of reached.
Speaker D:So I'd got to large store management.
Speaker D:That's, that's the level I've got to from working in retail, from being 16 and I got to this large store.
Speaker D:So I was managing a team of about 50 people and my next, my only next step in that business would have been to go to area manager but I knew that that role wouldn't have suited a family.
Speaker D:There's no way I could have had young children doing that job.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:And I knew I wanted children so I, I had to make a choice at that point and actually my family started before I made the choice because I had, I had my eldest who's nearly 19 now when I was 22.
Speaker D:So I had Lucy then and she was two months old when I registered for my DBS.
Speaker D:I'm a PRN.
Speaker D:She was two months old and I qualified.
Speaker D:It took me about 18 months so she was coming up for two when I qualified.
Speaker D:So I had a two year old when I started.
Speaker D:Training was difficult, like really, really difficult.
Speaker D:I had a, you know, six months old baby like going out and training.
Speaker D:I was on mat leave then I had to go back to Work.
Speaker D:So by the time, because it was very much do your part one, then we'll do your part two.
Speaker D:So I went back just as I'd done my part two, I had to go back to work.
Speaker D:I had no choice but to go back full time.
Speaker D:So I was working a 40, 50 hour job with a 9 month old baby and I was put in at least 10 hours plus into my training per week for my part three.
Speaker D:So it was, it was quite stressful really.
Speaker D:Looking back, not quite sure how I managed to spin so many plates.
Speaker D:But then I fast forward 18 years to me being nearly 41 and I'm still doing the same stuff.
Speaker D:I'm still spinning loads of plates.
Speaker D:Maybe some things will never change.
Speaker B:You've got really good at it, Emma.
Speaker D:I have got really good at it.
Speaker A:You're the exception to my rule that no one leaves school wanting to be a driving instructor.
Speaker A:You are the exception.
Speaker A:I did, yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I was at college again.
Speaker A:For me, I'll keep this fairly brief.
Speaker A:I was actually at the time professional gambler and decided that it wasn't the most reliable way to earn a living.
Speaker A:So I wanted something that was flexible.
Speaker A:I could be in charge of my own diary.
Speaker A:And I like driving.
Speaker A:Turns out that you don't drive and potentially in the beginning you're not really that much in charge of your diary, especially when you look for a national driving school.
Speaker A:And interestingly you mentioned red there, Emma.
Speaker A:I started with red and I remember going down, they run a bit two day business seminar and they asked, they were trying to work out how to get customers, how to get pupils and they said, how did discover red?
Speaker A:My answer was you were the first one that popped up on Google.
Speaker A:So I think that's an interesting point to say that anyone listening to this is thinking about becoming a driving instructor.
Speaker A:Don't just go for the first thing that pops up on Google.
Speaker A:So I'm going to ask you both for a tip now and the first one that comes in gets to give the first tip.
Speaker A:So the other one is then stuck because they can't give the same tip.
Speaker A:So what tip would you give to someone if they're thinking about coming in?
Speaker A:Instructor in terms of where to get started, who to go with?
Speaker B:Emma?
Speaker B:I'll let you go first.
Speaker D:See, Tom's a gent.
Speaker D:You would have made it a competition, Terry.
Speaker A:I was and it spoilt it.
Speaker A:So, you know, whatever, carry on.
Speaker D:I think my tip would be to look beyond the surface.
Speaker D:Look beyond the surface and go and go and look in your local area.
Speaker D:Who it's difficult because it's who.
Speaker D:Who's perceiving to be is.
Speaker D:Is a social media thing, isn't it?
Speaker D:And it doesn't necessarily mean that a good job is being done, but how to, you know, go beyond the surface.
Speaker D:Maybe even go and ask a local school if you can get in the back of a car, see what it's about before you even go and see what the job is about before you apply for it.
Speaker D:Like you wouldn't apply for any other job necessarily.
Speaker D:I suppose some people would based on a title that was ambiguous.
Speaker D:You know, you'd want to know more about the job and what role you'll be playing and what that looks like and things like that.
Speaker D:So, yeah, my tip would be go beyond the surface, find out what being the driving instructor is.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:Be curious.
Speaker B:And yeah, just it's.
Speaker B:I think it's very much about talking to different people about it so you can get different experiences.
Speaker B:When we drive it, when we get somebody contact us who's interested in becoming a driving instructor will often try and put them in contact with somebody who's already training at the moment so that they can give their opinion on what they think the process is like.
Speaker B:You know, I think the industry is amazing, but they might think that actually it's much harder than they thought it was going to be or there are other complications that they hadn't considered.
Speaker B:So I think if you're curious and you gather as much information as you can, then you, you get to make a more informed decision.
Speaker B:My example is always when you go to a restaurant.
Speaker B:I like going to a restaurant with a good menu because if there's more to choose from, I get to look at all those things.
Speaker B:If the only thing they've got is vegetarian options, I'm not as pleased.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Vegan options would be the preference, I think.
Speaker A:Interestingly, I wonder if there's too much choice on the menu at the minute, but maybe we'll get into that later.
Speaker A:I do, I want to get more into the training, specifically who we go with, how we do it, but I think it's worth just touching a little bit more around that process because when you come to the, to the passing the part two, we then need to look at training for a part three, and there's a few different ways to do this, but the basic premise is either a pink license or not a pink license.
Speaker A:So, Tom, I think I want to come to you first just to kind of explain that process for us, please.
Speaker B:And I mean, this is A question that often comes up when, when I get instructors who contact me about what should they do, what, what avenue should they go down?
Speaker B:And I think it's very much a personal decision that they've got to make on their financial position, their current life position, just what they do generally within their life.
Speaker B:So if you want to go down a trainee license route, you have to complete a minimum amount of hours, and I'm sure we're going to talk about this anyway, that minimum amount is not enough, but it's set by DVSA so you have to complete a minimum of 40 hours within six months of applying for your trainee license.
Speaker B:So it has to be valid within that 6 month period.
Speaker B:What that trainee license will do is allow you to charge money or money's worth for driving lessons.
Speaker B:And there are only two times in which you can do that, and that is if you have a trainee license or if you have a ADI certificate or what's known as a green badge, you can charge money or money's worth for driving lessons under those two situations.
Speaker B:Whether you choose to go down the trainee license, as I said, is very much up to you.
Speaker B:It doesn't work for everyone.
Speaker B:And an example I'll give you is I've helped a trainee the last couple of years.
Speaker B:She's just recently qualified.
Speaker B:She listens to your podcast, Terry, so she'll probably hear us.
Speaker B:She knows who she is.
Speaker B:Hi, Jane.
Speaker B:And her going down a trainee license just wasn't really something that, that she thought was going to work for her.
Speaker B:So she did lots of training.
Speaker B:She got herself a vehicle set up, ready with dual controls in, in fact, she bought it off another driving instructor so it was ready and raring to go.
Speaker B:And alongside her job that she currently had, she would deliver free driving lessons because she cannot charge money or money's worth for driving lessons.
Speaker B:And that does also include people giving you money for fuel.
Speaker B:And this is important that people understand this because if you are found out to be taking any kind of money for those lessons, that is a reasonably good, a reasonably good reason to be removed from being a trainee or a PDI and under fit and proper from dvsa, that that could be a reason of why they remove you and say you cannot continue.
Speaker B:So that really worked for her.
Speaker B:And I've got a few other trainees at the moment who have full time jobs and they don't want to give that up until they are fully qualified.
Speaker B:So they deliver free driving lessons in their spare time.
Speaker B:They gain training along the way and when they're Ready they go and take the part three and hopefully qualify.
Speaker A:A brilliant explanation.
Speaker A:And I just want to come back just on the, the, the taking money aspect because I want to give one other example because I thought the way you explained it was brilliant.
Speaker A:But I, this week I received some tomatoes.
Speaker A:Someone gave me some fresh tomatoes as a, as a thank you for the lessons.
Speaker A:It's an 85 year old chap had grown them himself and he gave me some fresh tomatoes.
Speaker A:If you are not on a trainee license or you are not a qualified adi, you are not allowed to accept those tomatoes.
Speaker A:Are you correct?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Mer, what, what are your thoughts?
Speaker A:I know, I know it's personal preference but where do you think it suits someone to go on a trainee pink license as opposed to where it might suit someone to, to not.
Speaker D:Basically yeah, I think, I think, I think back to my own.
Speaker D:Like there was absolutely no way on earth I was wedging in a pink license in my life at that time.
Speaker D:Like I had a 2 year old, well 18 month old, I had a full time job, I had a household to maintain.
Speaker D:Pink badge was just not even on my radar at all because it would have just thrown my life into absolute chaos.
Speaker D:So I, I didn't do any, I didn't even my.
Speaker D:It's interesting and this, this I suppose is where we look at old style, you know, qualifying to what it is now.
Speaker D:I didn't actually teach my first learner until after I was qualified.
Speaker D:My first learner was after I'd qualified, which I've look at now and I think wow, like how did that even happen?
Speaker D:And it's no wonder that I threw myself into training because I was feeling so out of depth, so out of depth when I first qualified.
Speaker D:So I think we know we could talk about the pluses and the negatives for this probably for the rest of the day.
Speaker D:But I think it does come down to what, what's going on in your life.
Speaker D:I personally, and it does come from that personal perspective because it was my journey think that people should try to at least teach one person for free if they don't go on a pink badge because then they've got that reality of what it is, you know, to have a learner driver because it's very different than me playing the role of one.
Speaker D:Although I have got playing role play learner driver down to a T these days, you know, it's, it's still not the same.
Speaker D:So regardless of how, how well I might play that role so you know has got to be about the balance because I Could flip this the other way and go, you know, for the ones who quit their jobs and go on a pink badge.
Speaker D:There's conversation I have there as well in that, you know, is that really the right thing for you to do?
Speaker D:It's not my decision to make.
Speaker D:But let's talk about this.
Speaker D:Let's look at the blind spots again.
Speaker D:You know, let's talk, look at the stuff that you might not have thought about.
Speaker D:And I often encourage people when they're making that decision to work backwards.
Speaker D:You know, don't think about where you are now and what it might look like, but actually envision yourself while you're at work this week, finishing work at 5pm or whatever you're doing.
Speaker D:If you're doing a 9 to 5 and then going out and doing a driving lesson, literally ask yourself when you've come home and eating your, your evening meal with your family, do you really want to go out and do a driving lesson now?
Speaker D:Because that's going to tell you what that's going to feel like potentially, you know, so I often get people to try and work backwards and, and put themselves in that scenario as much as possible.
Speaker D:How is it going to feel if you've quit your job and you've only, you know, you've, you've got so X amount of learners, how's that going to be mentally?
Speaker D:Because it's, it's a very different perspective to what you used to.
Speaker D:Is there a middle ground that can be found somewhere?
Speaker D:But I think again it's, it's very much a conversation to help them see the, the highs, the lows of what both of those options might look like.
Speaker A:I think it's worth just mentioning here that when the three of us qualified, it was a different part three test.
Speaker A:So for anyone listening now is different.
Speaker A:There would be an examiner would sit in the front and role play a pupil.
Speaker A:So in theory you wouldn't actually need to do anything with a pupil until as you alluded to Emma, you qualify and then you go and get a pupil.
Speaker A:Whereas now the part three, you will have a pupil in the driver's seat.
Speaker A:The examiner will be sat in the back watching.
Speaker A:So I will probably suggest it's better to at least teach someone before that.
Speaker A:But I just want to throw this at you.
Speaker A:Everyone ask you this.
Speaker A:If someone didn't want to get a dual controlled car and then not on a pink license, is there a way they could still train even if they didn't have a dual controlled car because they still wanted to keep the job?
Speaker A:So therefore they maybe couldn't afford a second car or whatever.
Speaker D:Yeah, I mean there's ways around things, it's gotta be very carefully concealed, considered and you've got to consider things like insurances and all of that type of stuff.
Speaker D:I have done it before with a PDI who didn't have a dual control car, who taught the learner driver for an hour a week in my car.
Speaker D:But the premise was I had to be in the car so I was sat in the back.
Speaker D:But they're on paid badge at that point anyway, so this is part of their ongoing training and development anyway.
Speaker D:But they're teaching a learner driver or I've had people teach my learner drivers.
Speaker D:You know, we've had that three way thing where it's predominantly my learner driver, but my PDI has maybe observed half of the lesson and then had a go at doing some teaching themselves, you know, so there's, there are ways of, of working around this for, you know, if I'd have had that option.
Speaker F:Then,.
Speaker D:And I probably did, I just didn't know about it.
Speaker D:If I'd have had this option back then, that probably would have been how I would have liked to have trained through my part three stuff to give me the option of having that learner driver.
Speaker D:I'd never used dual controls ever till I had to use them, which is, it's quite scary, you know, it's quite scary.
Speaker D:And I mean I am a big, a big advocate now that my biggest dual control is my mouth.
Speaker D:But you know, I, and I massively advocate that the biggest dual control in the car is your mouth.
Speaker D:But they are there for a purpose, you know, they are there for safety.
Speaker D:So, you know, I think I would encourage people to find ways to do some teaching with learners and actually see it's very different teaching me as your learner driver than it is with a real learner.
Speaker D:Very, very different.
Speaker D:At that point you may actually realize you don't like the job.
Speaker D:You don't know it's, it's happened, you know, or you might realize actually I do want to go on a pink, pink badge.
Speaker D:I do want to maybe give up two days at work and drop my hours if that's possible, you know, and work around things.
Speaker D:So it's good to at least explore it before you pick which route you're going to go down.
Speaker B:I think I'm doing some training for somebody at the moment who's pretty much in that example you've given Terry.
Speaker B:They have a full time job, they don't want to have a dual control car just yet.
Speaker B:They are delivering free lessons and we helped find them some work on social media in our local area and they have found two people who have their own vehicles and they travel to their house, meet the learner and they are a supervising driver.
Speaker B:That learner has got insurance, they've checked to make sure it's all okay.
Speaker B:They were very lucky to find two people in that situation like that.
Speaker B:But I think sometimes you make your own luck as well by looking in the right places and having the guiding hand behind you to give you the advice.
Speaker B:And this, this trainee, hopefully when they go and pass their part three, they can then make the decision, right, am I ready to go and get a car now and what situations am I going to choose from there so it can be done?
Speaker B:You just, you are limited a little bit more with options,.
Speaker A:Like anything, there's an ideal scenario, you know, the ideal scenario is that you, you go and get your car, you put dual controls in it and then you start teaching as, as not as many as you can, but you know, a decent number of people to get that experience.
Speaker A:But if you can't do that, there are ways around it.
Speaker A:But I, I want to move on to the pink license.
Speaker A:I think this is probably more common and I think it's definitely more complicated.
Speaker A:So Tom, you stated before that 40 hours was not enough.
Speaker A:So talk to me about this 40 hours.
Speaker B:Do you want me to talk to you about the 40 hours or why I don't think it's enough?
Speaker A:I think both overlap.
Speaker B:So, okay, so the currently the 40 hours and I think this is worth noting for people who are listening because I have slight anxiety over this in that in order to apply for a trainee license you have to have a sponsor.
Speaker B:And that sponsor can be an ADI or it can be a driving school.
Speaker B:In those terms you have to have certain paperwork signed.
Speaker B:And one of those sets of paperwork is the ADI21T generally is the one that most people go for.
Speaker B:And on there there are 20 topics that you are signing to say that you've completed.
Speaker B:However, and DVSA are well aware of this, they are looking at trying to change the paperwork.
Speaker B:But probably by the time we all retire, we signed this paperwork to say we've completed these topics.
Speaker B:And I don't know about you, Emma, but I hardly cover any of those topics because they were based on the old style of training and the old, what were known as PSTs preset tests.
Speaker B:And now we look far more at the skills and the kind of emotional development from a learner than doing the topics they've got on this paperwork.
Speaker B:But it is a legal requirement and it is a document that we both sign to say we've completed this.
Speaker B:But I'm quite open to my trainees to explain to them of the process that DVSA are well aware of this.
Speaker B:It's not fraudulent, we have completed it.
Speaker B:It's just the words that are on this paperwork are slightly different to the topics we've looked at.
Speaker B:So that would be one of my first things to kind of let people know of.
Speaker B:You have to complete this minimum and within the regulations, one quarter of all training must be in car and it must be with an ADI is generally what's within those regulations, which is scary because that could mean that you do 10 hours of in car training and 30 hours of online training and you would then be able to have a trainee license.
Speaker B:And the unfortunate thing is that DVSA doesn't really have a way of checking the quality of that training that you've received.
Speaker B:And I have had people in the past who have approached me and asked if I will just sign their paperwork to say they've done their hours and then we do the hours after.
Speaker B:Now, I've always turned that down because I pride myself in being professional and if I was caught doing that, I am absolutely confident I would be removed under fit and proper from dvsa, rightly so, because I'm being fraudulent.
Speaker B:So yeah, it can be a bit of a minefield for people.
Speaker B:But if you are with a reputable trainer and your training is suitable for modern day driver training, you should be in a good position.
Speaker A:40 Hours, that's not.
Speaker A:Let me ask, let me rephrase that.
Speaker A:Is that a recommended amount of hours or is that the minimum number of hours?
Speaker B:That is the minimum number of hours that is set by DVSA in order to apply for a trainee license.
Speaker B:So I could go the other way.
Speaker B:There is no regulation that states you have to do any training at all in order to go and take the tests.
Speaker B:So you could go and do part one, attempt part two and attempt part three without any training at all.
Speaker B:Now, I have heard on social media, because it must be true, I have heard on social media of people doing that.
Speaker B:But you know, we currently have 45 and a half, just over 45,000 ADIs on the register.
Speaker B:I'd say it's probably less than 0.1% of people that do that.
Speaker A:Regarding that training, that 40 hours as a minimum, then what some of the problems that you are seeing, like not necessarily from PDIS coming to you, but like within the industry itself and how that's treated.
Speaker B:I mean, I think there's a few different things that I've seen there, unfortunately, although I think this is less so, but it is still prominent the 40 hours.
Speaker B:Some trainers are still basing it on what is required on that form.
Speaker B:And that is an outdated form.
Speaker B:Even DVSA recognized that.
Speaker B:And there's nothing really within that form that talks about the factors that we spoke about earlier, the emotional regulation or the thoughts and feelings that go behind driving.
Speaker B:It's all driving related topics or the lower levels of the goals for driver education matrix.
Speaker B:So to say to somebody that you've got to go and do 40 hours is us trying to put everybody in the same basket.
Speaker B:And Emma said earlier everybody is an individual.
Speaker B:So I've had instructors come to me who are teachers and they've had coaching experience.
Speaker B:Well, actually we had one year before last and he was so lucky in the fact that he got his tests come through, but he qualified in less than seven months.
Speaker B:And part of that is because he passed everything first time.
Speaker B:But he'd already got lots of teaching and coaching experience.
Speaker B:All we spent our time doing was relating what he already knew to the new topic of educating, you know, drivers where you may have somebody who has zero experience in any type of teaching and coaching and actually has very little experience of more advanced driving.
Speaker B:Well, then they may need double, triple that amount of hours.
Speaker B:But it is stipulated by DVSA that is the minimum that is required.
Speaker D:Yeah, and I think I'd put in there as well when it comes to.
Speaker D:I'm not going to name names because that's not very professional of me.
Speaker D:There are some driving schools out there that will take that, that 25%, that 10 hours, one to one in car and will give and deliver 30 hours online.
Speaker D:But the deliverance of that online is done to a room of people.
Speaker D:And how,.
Speaker B:How do we.
Speaker D:And I think this, this probably touches a nerve in me because it comes to the school education system.
Speaker D:Like how is a teacher stood UP and teaching 30 kids with 30 individual attitudes to learning and abilities and, and strengths and weaknesses and things like that.
Speaker D:And it kind of gives me the classroom vibe, you know, it gives me that kind of.
Speaker D:I'm the trainer and I'm going to train all you people who are on the screen here with me online and I'm just basically going to stand and talk at you for a varied amount of time.
Speaker D:And whether you grasp what I'm talking about or not is irrelevant.
Speaker D:I'm going to sign these hours off to say that you've had them.
Speaker D:And I think where then does the curiosity and the transparency come in?
Speaker D:Because how do I pick out the person who's on the training session that needs a deeper learning on a particular skill or topic than the other person who sat on the other side of the screen who's grasped it and has got it and wants to move on?
Speaker D:Like, how do I balance that when I've got all of these people?
Speaker D:Now, I'm not against online training.
Speaker D:I think it's very valuable.
Speaker D:I attend online training quite regularly, but as a qualified instructor learning and developing skills I already have.
Speaker D:Not necessarily somebody who's coming in learning something new.
Speaker D:And I think that's where the difference is.
Speaker D:And I think what concerns me about the minimum 40 hours is that people see it as the goal to achieve.
Speaker D:Yeah, I just need to get to 40 hours.
Speaker D:Again, there's a blind spot for the trainee unbeknownst to them and not their fault in the how they are trained and the way it's delivered.
Speaker D:They are going to accept from the person that they've signed up to train with whether that is correct or not for them.
Speaker D:And as much as we, I'm sure, definitely the three people who are sat here right now, we're not aiming for this hierarchy.
Speaker D:I think a classroom creates that hierarchy just from its nature.
Speaker D:Not because the person who's delivering is trying to create the hierarchy, but just from its own nature.
Speaker D:There is a teacher and X amount of students.
Speaker D:And how do we then weave together part one, part two, part three?
Speaker D:How do we work with client centered learning?
Speaker D:How do we get our trainees to adopt client centered learning when they're not the client at the centre for themselves?
Speaker D:It doesn't make sense for me.
Speaker A:Client centered learning, not clients centered learning.
Speaker A:I think I just, I want to speak to the people listening for a second and just say that this is where you need to take a look almost inwards.
Speaker A:We spoke before about where you want to be, what you want to achieve.
Speaker A:Do you want to be the person that does the absolute minimum necessary?
Speaker A:And I think that's what you have to consider and if you do, that's your choice.
Speaker A:I'm not judging it.
Speaker A:By judging, maybe I'm a little bit, I don't know, but I'm not overly judging you for it.
Speaker A:You have a right to come along and say the DVSA has said this is the minimum I need to do.
Speaker A:So therefore I'm going to do the minimum.
Speaker A:And you have every right to do that.
Speaker A:What I would encourage anyone listening is to take a step back and go, do I want to be that person?
Speaker A:You know, and then there's.
Speaker A:I appreciate costs come into it as well, but there's ways around that.
Speaker A:There are webinars, there are free webinars, there are the ability to sit in on driving lessons and this kind of stuff, stuff that can count towards this, but it shouldn't.
Speaker A:I would encourage anyone not to go.
Speaker A:What's the least I need to do to qualify?
Speaker A:I think I would really put that out there.
Speaker A:But let's say someone's done those 40 hours or whatever number of hours they've done to hopefully more they then get a pink license, a trainee license.
Speaker A:Emma, what should they be considering when it comes to that license and the lessons and the training they're going to deliver over that period of having that license?
Speaker D:I think the first thing to consider, and again, I would encourage people to work backwards with this in regards to, firstly, what are they looking to get out of this pink badge?
Speaker D:It's a training badge, so it's there to help them develop and train and get some experience before becoming an adi.
Speaker D:So the.
Speaker D:I would encourage them to, when they're making the decision, when they're making the choices with regards to do I keep my job, do I not keep my job, do I drop some hours at work, do I get a dual control bit?
Speaker D:All of these things that we've been talking about.
Speaker D:I would encourage people, if they, they then choose to go down the pink badge, work backwards with that.
Speaker D:Think about what potential investment into training you're going to need now while you're on this pink badge, because potentially they have opted to do 20 additional hours of training or they've chosen the supervision of 20% of their lessons.
Speaker D:So depends on which which way they're going to go.
Speaker D:What's the cost of that?
Speaker D:What does that look like with the trainer?
Speaker D:You know, what days and times is that going to work for them and the trainer and their pupils?
Speaker F:And.
Speaker D:I always encourage mine to sort of break even within that, you know, so earn what you need to learn and use that training badge to the best of your, your abilities and capabilities for what it's there for, without getting too bogged down with making it something about earning at this point, because one, it might be taken away.
Speaker D:So you don't want it to become, you know, you don't want to be relying on it.
Speaker D:If, if you're relying on that to pay your mortgage, you know, it can be taken Away, either through not getting through the part three or because you realize that this job isn't for you.
Speaker D:You know, there's various.
Speaker D:All sorts of different reasons as to why it's not necessarily a stable income at that point.
Speaker D:So, yeah, I encourage them to work backwards.
Speaker D:What's the.
Speaker D:What's the minimum you need to get out of this in order to make this pink badge work from a training perspective?
Speaker D:And then let's have a look at how that fits into your life.
Speaker D:How does that work with my availability as your trainer?
Speaker D:How does that work with what you know, where your pupils might come from?
Speaker D:What days and times are we advertising here?
Speaker D:You know, all of that type of stuff.
Speaker D:So there's a lot to kind of.
Speaker D:To think, think about.
Speaker D:And again, highlight the blind spots so that they can make a sensible decision.
Speaker A:Emma mentioned there about the training essentially required when you're on a pink license, which is basically supervision for one out of every five lessons or 20 hours of additional training.
Speaker A:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker A:Is that, again, the minimum?
Speaker A:Should we just be going for one of those?
Speaker A:Should we be just doing.
Speaker A:Not necessarily as much as we can, but as much as we need and kind of ignore in the minimum, just making sure we.
Speaker A:That we're actually achieving the minimum but doing what we need?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it works both ways, doesn't it?
Speaker B:There is the potential where some people might not need that 20 hours because they've already come from a background.
Speaker B:They may have already been an instructor who left the industry and has come back into it.
Speaker B:But I think it's good that there is a minimum amount.
Speaker B:I just think it's a bit low.
Speaker B:But even that, that 20 hours, when generally, as we've already alluded to, there are two routes you go down.
Speaker B:Most people, and DVSA kind of admit this, most people choose the additional training route, which means you have to complete an additional 20 hours of training within the first 12 weeks or three months of that trainee license.
Speaker B:If you don't do that unless there are extenuating circumstances, you may not be allowed a second trainee licence if you required it.
Speaker B:And potentially you may not be accepted onto the register as an ADI if you qualify because you haven't adhered to the regulations that you agreed to.
Speaker B:Again with that 20 hours, if that's the route you've gone down, the regulations still apply with a minimum of quarter of that has to be done in car.
Speaker B:So 5% of those 20 hours should be done in car, the rest could be done online.
Speaker B:Five percent?
Speaker B:Five, yeah.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:20 Hours yeah, but only five hours would then need to be done in car.
Speaker B:It's Friday afternoon.
Speaker B:Trying to do maths at the best of time is not good.
Speaker B:But yeah, so your original thing there, which is, there is a minimum, but I think people should be, should be looking well above that.
Speaker B:We do this with learners.
Speaker B:I don't want my learner to be test standard, and I hate that term with a passion.
Speaker B:I don't want my learners to be test standard.
Speaker B:I want them to be a good driver who can make their own decisions, which should be well above what's required to pass the test.
Speaker B:Because we know that the average human is going to get nervous when they go to a test because we all do that and we are going to make silly mistakes that we might not normally make.
Speaker B:But as long as they are well above what's required, we should still be able to go and pass.
Speaker B:So as you said earlier, if people look at just that bare minimum, you may go and scrape through.
Speaker B:But would you want, if you were going to hospital to have surgery, would you want your surgeon to have just scraped through?
Speaker B:You know, would you want the anesthetist to have just scraped through or would you want them to be at the top of their game and still improving?
Speaker B:I know which one I would choose.
Speaker A:With those two differences there, we've got the supervision and we've got the additional training.
Speaker A:What are the benefits?
Speaker A:For anyone listening now, that is considering this, what are the benefits?
Speaker A:But I suppose ideally all three of us would like the someone in this situation do both.
Speaker A:But if someone was kind of weighing on which to prioritize, what are the benefits of each?
Speaker B:Emma, do you want to.
Speaker D:I think it.
Speaker D:Again, I think it comes down to the individual.
Speaker D:Like for me, this kind of comes down to like learning styles and things like that.
Speaker D:Because, you know what, what.
Speaker D:And by this point as well, let's not forget that they've done a lot of training.
Speaker D:They've probably figured themselves out as a trainee a little bit better by now as well.
Speaker D:And you know, they've got a little bit of sort of understanding of what's going on.
Speaker D:In my experience, the vast majority do go down the 20 additional hours, but the vast majority of that is a supervised session anyway.
Speaker D:So even though it's, we've gone down the additional training route, a lot of it is supervised training anyway.
Speaker D:You know, we start with a supervised lesson, then there's feedback given at the end of that and then there might be a standalone one to one between trainer and trainee next time to do some training.
Speaker D:Based on something that might have come out of that supervised lesson, you know, a skill set that they want to work on or what have you.
Speaker D:And then the next session might be another supervised session where we're looking to see whether that skill's been implemented or if anything else is going on.
Speaker D:So I think, you know, the additional training for me anyway, and I am just talking from personal perspective here, a lot of that additional training is done with some supervision in there anyway.
Speaker D:And I think that way you get more of a blended learning in that it's not just isolated to one to one and you get to see them live with the student and see what that, you know, what that, that relationship looks like in order to then create a pathway for their own one to one learning through their additional hours.
Speaker D:And I often find that once people, I think they go in with the mindset of I'm just going to do 20 hours, but maybe because of how we blended it and they get quite a lot out of the supervision and then the feedback and then the one to one session afterwards that in my experience a lot of people have, do have more than 20 hours because they, they get to like that, that sort of input that you have in helping them support their learner and then helping them grow based on that as well.
Speaker D:So for me it should be a blending of the two anyway.
Speaker D:It shouldn't necessarily be the additional hours as being a one to one thing.
Speaker D:I think there's a lot of value in the supervision because you get to see them live.
Speaker A:When I reached out to you before this, Emma, I asked if there's anything you specifically wanted to cover and you said time management.
Speaker A:And I want to drip that in here because when I went on my pink license about nine years ago, I remember asking the driving school like how many hours do PDIs normally do?
Speaker A:And the response was about 40.
Speaker A:And therefore I did about 40 hours.
Speaker A:And then some realized that that's really difficult to do 40 hours as a PDI.
Speaker A:In fact.
Speaker A:No, I'll take that back.
Speaker A:It's not difficult to do 40 hours as PDI.
Speaker A:It's difficult to train properly doing 40 hours as a PDI.
Speaker A:Because the pink license or the trainee license is exactly that.
Speaker A:It's a training license.
Speaker A:It's designed to help you train.
Speaker A:And as you alluded to earlier, Emma as well, yes, we want to earn money from it.
Speaker A:We want you as a PDI to earn money from it to cover your training.
Speaker A:You know, it's a great way.
Speaker A:So that actually even if you went all the way through and end up failing.
Speaker A:It's a great way to make sure it doesn't cost you as much overall.
Speaker A:But what would you be saying to people regarding the time management on that pink license?
Speaker D:Yeah, I think, I mean, one of the biggest things that is, is said in my, in, in the car when we get to pink license bit is that for every driving lesson you deliver, you need to equally match that time in reflection as a minimum.
Speaker D:As a minimum.
Speaker D:If, if you can give it more, give it more, you know, But I.
Speaker D:So when, when I'm talking about time management, particularly around a pink badge, this isn't about how many hours of driving glass and time you can deliver in X amount of days that you can do this because the learning, just the same as it is with your learner, the learning isn't necessarily happening in the deliverance of the lesson.
Speaker D:Partly it is, but a lot of the learning's happening in the reflection afterwards and how we then reapply that back into the next session or into our other learners or into who we are as a person.
Speaker D:That self awareness and self reflection thing that we talked about earlier on.
Speaker D:So when I'm talking about time management, I get them to think realistically that it's not the amount of learners that you're going to have does not equally and equate to the amount of hours that you will work.
Speaker D:So if you've got five, that doesn't mean you need to find five hours in a week, you need to find at least 10.
Speaker D:If you've got five learners, at least 10.
Speaker D:Because you need to leave space for your own reflection, your own time away from the lessons, to think back over what happened.
Speaker D:That space that needs to be created needs time and it needs proper time.
Speaker D:It's not, I'll think about it while I'm eating, you know, my tea or I'll eat it, I'll do it while I'm, you know, preparing to go to bed.
Speaker D:I'll have a think about it before I go to sleep.
Speaker D:You know, it needs to be proper reflection time.
Speaker D:And that's where I met what I mean about time management.
Speaker D:I think there's not a lot in invested or sort of promoted maybe from, from trainers to the PDI who through no fault of their own don't know this.
Speaker D:You know, we've got to remember that they don't know this, that the learning isn't happening necessarily with the learner in the car, it's in the training, it's in the development, it's in the reflection.
Speaker D:So there needs to be time embedded in that.
Speaker D:And that's where I was going with the time management thing.
Speaker A:Nathan, you want to try that again?
Speaker A:Anything you would like to add on to that, Tom?
Speaker B:No, I agree with, with what Emma said.
Speaker B:There's, it's.
Speaker B:I think sometimes people can fall into the trap of thinking that by going on a trainee license they're going to get lots of experience teaching learners.
Speaker B:But experience doesn't mean you're any good.
Speaker B:It just shows how much you've done or how long you've done it.
Speaker B:And I'm going to relate to something that you often say.
Speaker B:I was going to call you Steve.
Speaker B:Sorry, Terry.
Speaker B:No, no, I was going to call you Steve.
Speaker B:It could relate something that you say Terry.
Speaker D:Now I've got to call him Steve.
Speaker E:Phil.
Speaker B:Yeah, Steve.
Speaker B:Cpd.
Speaker B:Doesn't matter how much CPD you do.
Speaker B:It's about actioning it and putting it into practice.
Speaker B:And that's where I'm kind of definitely on the same line with Emma is that you might go and deliver a lesson, but you've got to go and reflect on that and you've got to be able to make sure that.
Speaker B:What are you basing that good lesson on?
Speaker B:Is it just because you didn't nearly crash or is it because actually you maximize the learning process and you tried, you, you, you taught that client in, in a manner that worked for them but you treated them as an individual through the whole process and you didn't crash.
Speaker B:So yeah, those would be the bits that I, I'd add in there.
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Speaker E:Learners need more than just skills and practice and reps to pass a driving test.
Speaker E:They need coaching that addresses the higher levels of the GDE on every single lesson.
Speaker E:That's why we created the Professional Diploma in Coaching and Behavioral Change for Safe Driving.
Speaker E:This accredited qualification, equivalent to a BTech Professional Award Level 4.
Speaker E:5, Gives you the tools and recognition to transform the way you teach.
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Speaker E:One that shifts the paradigm of driver education for instructors, for pupils and for parents all across the country.
Speaker E:At BrightCoaching, we are training the next generation of driving instructors.
Speaker E:To check availability for our online cohorts and in person cohorts, please visit the website@brightcoaching.net and you can also sign up to our mailing list where you'll be informed of all the latest early book discounts as they become available.
Speaker F:Worried about your Part three or standards check, can't seem to get it right.
Speaker F:Knowledgeable Instructor training have the kit that you need.
Speaker F:Classroom based CCL workshops, our two day in car rescue kit and our video hub are specifically designed to not only help you to pass the tests, but to also give you what you need to deliver great CCL lessons.
Speaker F:Whatever it is that is the missing bit.
Speaker F:Knowledgeable instructor training has the kit for you.
Speaker A:Tom, the trainee license is six months long, so what happens if during those six months you take your part three test and fail?
Speaker B:So if you are unsuccessful at a part three attempt, you are supposed to do five additional hours of training which would then need to be filled out onto a form.
Speaker B:This is all within the regulations, the motor car regulations.
Speaker B:What I would say there again, and this is where it's a little bit frustrating, you have to do a minimum of five hours, but with all additional training, one quarter of that needs to be in car.
Speaker B:So 1/4 of 5 hours needs to be in car.
Speaker B:I'm not very good at maths, I'm not even going to try and work that out.
Speaker B:But again, I would say try not to look at it as the bare minimum I would look at actually.
Speaker B:If you have been unsuccessful, what were the contributing factors to that and what time do you need to develop it instead of I just need to do five hours, well, you may need another 10 hours, you might need 15 hours, it might be even longer.
Speaker B:Although I think if you've got a good trainer behind you, if you've had an unsuccessful attempt, you hopefully shouldn't need another 20 hours.
Speaker B:On top of that, there should be something that is relatively simple to address, but we don't live in an ideal world.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, so if you've been unsuccessful, you should really do within the regulations, another five hours of additional training which needs to be signed on the relevant forms and then if you apply for a second trainee license, generally DVSA would want this information to make sure that you have kept up with the agreement that is in place for trainee license holders.
Speaker A:Anything else we'd like to touch on regarding this area before we move on to how to find good training.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I've got one quick thing which I think is probably worth mentioning, but I haven't spoken to you about this before and this is just advertising yourself as a trainee and I think having a little bit of additional information here, I've seen this week alone two trainees on social media with big driving schools who are advertising themself.
Speaker B:So I've spent hours talking to DVSA about this and the registrar at the moment, Dan Russell, he's given lots of good information on this.
Speaker B:So as a PDI who's on a trainee license, you can advertise in the fact that Steve, my trainee, he could advertise that updriver training has got driving lessons in the area.
Speaker B:Please contact updriver training and you can find out more information.
Speaker B:What Steve can't do is advertise on social media to say that Steve's driving school under representation of UP driver training or drive up training, whoever it is, because you're misleading the public in that you are a driving school when you're not.
Speaker B:You also must stipulate or you should stipulate on any advertising that you are giving that you are a trainee driving instructor.
Speaker B:And the advice from DVSA is, is don't put the acronym PDI because most people don't know what an ADI is, let alone a pdi.
Speaker B:So if you are advertising your sponsoring adi, your sponsoring school, it's good to put their contact details on.
Speaker B:You should put on there that you are a trainee driving instructor so that you are adhering to the fact that you're not misleading any of members of the public.
Speaker B:So under the driving school or the sponsor, and please put down that you are a trainee driving instructor so that you're not misleading would be the two main parts that I'd try and get through to people.
Speaker A:So I want to come to you with this one, Emma first and then Tom, I'll let you come back in afterwards.
Speaker A:Kind of the same question.
Speaker A:When someone is choosing a sponsor or choosing where or how to get the training, what are the key things they should be looking for and how do they know if that's training is good?
Speaker D:The first thing, and I suppose this is because this is how we do it at driver training.
Speaker D:The first thing, I want to meet that person face to face.
Speaker D:I encourage that to happen because we are all humans, we are not meant to get on with everybody in the world.
Speaker D:It's not how this works.
Speaker D:Even in professional relationships, there are going to be people that you are happy to work with and there are going to be people that you are not happy to work with, regardless of what the context is or the professionalism or their qualifications, you know.
Speaker D:So I always encourage people to go and get a feel for the person who is going to be training them.
Speaker D:Not the person who owns the driving school or the person who is the lead trainer, the person who is going to be training them because that person is the person you are going to Spend the vast majority of your time with.
Speaker D:And this person is a person that you need to be able to ask questions.
Speaker D:You need to be able to potentially have awkward conversations at times.
Speaker D:You know, this is the person who is going to see your vulnerability.
Speaker D:So, you know, the first thing I do would encourage anybody to do is go and meet the people and ask if you can meet the person who will be training you, not the driving school manager, because that's a person who you will never see again probably after that initial meeting.
Speaker D:So that would be the first thing that I would encourage people to do after that.
Speaker D:I would want to encourage people to ask their trainers what makes them a trainer.
Speaker D:You know, what have they done in order to become a trainer?
Speaker D:Not necessarily a qualification because we don't have one, but looking at things like, you know, what do they do for their own cpd?
Speaker D:What do they do?
Speaker D:You know, what qualifications have they got, if any, you know, what, how do they work?
Speaker D:Can they speak to other trainees?
Speaker D:Can they speak to other driving instructors in that school?
Speaker D:Can they speak to, if there is a manager, can they speak to some, you know, all of the different people within the business?
Speaker D:Is that an open door to all of the access the whole.
Speaker D:The whole business, you know, so is that, is that a possibility?
Speaker D:Because I think that allows them to see the business as a whole as well and lets them get a bit of a feel as to how they might be treated within the training process, what they might be treated from the business perspective of being in that business, what kind of contact they have from their trainer, what or what can they expect, you know, and all of us have got limits.
Speaker D:We've all got, you know, times that we work and times that we don't work.
Speaker D:Mine get very blurry, but I think that, you know, it's good to know that stuff.
Speaker D:And then finally I would get them or I would encourage them to ask, what does this course look like?
Speaker D:Can they see the materials that they were going to be using?
Speaker D:Is there an online part of this?
Speaker D:Is there a workbook to this?
Speaker D:Is there textbooks to this?
Speaker D:Like, can I see what this learning process may look like?
Speaker D:You know, what's the structure of this?
Speaker D:What are my learning materials?
Speaker D:Is there a syllabus that I'm going to be following all, all of that type of stuff so that they can see, basically as wide open as they can, what they're walking into?
Speaker D:One of the last things I always say to anybody who comes and meets me for potential training, one of the last things I say to them is before you come back to me, go and speak to other people.
Speaker D:Go and speak to other people and see what they offer you.
Speaker D:Because it might not be what I offer that might be for the better, it might be for the worse, you know, so go and find other people to speak to.
Speaker D:Don't just leave this to just this one person.
Speaker D:And you may think, you know what, I absolutely love this person.
Speaker D:I love what she's going to deliver.
Speaker D:I love what the business ethos looks like.
Speaker D:And that's great.
Speaker D:That's exactly how we want you to feel on that first.
Speaker D:That first meeting.
Speaker D:However, it's the only posts you've got if you've not gone and seen anybody else.
Speaker D:So how do you know I'm good?
Speaker D:How do you know what I'm going to deliver is good?
Speaker D:How do you know we're going to work well together when you haven't put me against something else?
Speaker D:So go and speak to.
Speaker D:I always recommend at least, at least 3, 5 if you can, and go from there.
Speaker B:I'm not sure I can add anything else in, to be honest, Emma, I think, yeah, I would agree with absolutely everything that you've said there.
Speaker B:I agree with the importance of them speaking to other people to find out what is available because this is a personal journey they're going to be in.
Speaker B:And yes, as a driving school owner, I have a training package that I think is superb, but it might not suit everybody.
Speaker B:And so people have to recognize that going to meet your trainer and like you say, not, not the person, not the salesperson on the phone or, you know, not the manager, but the person that you are going to be spending the time with, that is such a huge thing.
Speaker B:Because the person on the end of phone might be the nicest person you've ever spoken to.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean that's going to be the same for the person that you're spending 40, 60s, 80 hours plus in a car with.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I'm not entirely sure I can add anything else on that.
Speaker B:And I'm not saying that to be lazy.
Speaker A:Let me ask you about cost specifically then, Tom.
Speaker A:Like, obviously that has to factor in.
Speaker A:You know, we only have a certain amount of money as individuals, but how much should that be factored in?
Speaker A:You know, is there a.
Speaker A:Should we, if we become a driving instructor, should we be reaching out to people not just based on cost, but potentially also saying, this is my budget, could you help me with this?
Speaker A:Rather than just looking at a number and going, that's the only option?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And I Think with everything there is a spectrum.
Speaker B:One of the things that I hear quite a lot from driving instructors is, you know, don't buy cheap, you know, so the more expensive ones, they're going to be good.
Speaker B:Well, hang on, I could just put my prices up.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean that I'm a really good trainer or a good instructor.
Speaker B:And, you know, I don't necessarily class myself as a good trainer, but I'm relatively cheap for my area.
Speaker B:But that also doesn't take anything away from my training.
Speaker B:So you're absolutely right.
Speaker B:You've got to find a method that works for you.
Speaker B:And the interesting thing that I've noticed sort of over the last few years is the two options that we, our driving school offer is a pay as you go or a package.
Speaker B:The package, if you do the maths, the package, it just blows everything else out the water.
Speaker B:But some people still choose the pay as you go option because they don't see it over the long term, despite us explaining it.
Speaker B:They don't see it over the long term of if you are going to do 80 plus hours, just top that up on a calculator and you'll see how much you're going to spend in that long run.
Speaker B:But everybody has to find something that suits them, suits their budget as well.
Speaker B: ing training for as little as: Speaker B:You know, I'm not naming, I'm not blaming, There is a catch.
Speaker B:If you are having training for that type of price, there is a catch and that is either you are going to be signed into a contract once you qualify for probably 24 months, which means you're going to have to pay the money back at some point, or that training potentially might be substandard, or you might be doing 30 of the 40 minimum hours with being 99 of 100 people on a zoom call where you're not really getting the knowledge and the understanding that you need.
Speaker B:And I absolutely feel sorry for trainees because it is a minefield of how to choose and what to choose.
Speaker B:And you know, there's people probably listening, will be listening to this, thinking, ah, what Emma said was absolutely great, or what Tom said, or what Steve said was amazing.
Speaker B:But how do they know that?
Speaker B:Because they don't know what they don't know.
Speaker B:And, oh, it's just so difficult.
Speaker B:I do pity people.
Speaker A:Look, I want to ask you about the other elephant in the room, which is audit.
Speaker A:So I'm not going to add any Context on this.
Speaker A:I'm just going to let you explain kind of for the people listening what audit is and ask if in your opinion it's still relevant or if it holds a place or should be considered.
Speaker D:Okay, so the official register for driving instructor trainers firstly.
Speaker D:So everybody knows what audit is I think is a very controversial subject, should we say in the industry right now.
Speaker D:I, I'm going to end up with opinion based here, which is my opinion of course because I don't have anybody else's to.
Speaker D:To draw on right now is that it is a failing system or failed even I wouldn't say failing.
Speaker D:I think it's failed.
Speaker D:Think that's it.
Speaker D:That's, that's, that's it done.
Speaker D:And I think that I, I'm currently of the belief that.
Speaker D:Let's look at my personal journey with this.
Speaker D:So I started to quality.
Speaker D: I started to train in: Speaker D: train the trainer courses in: Speaker D: Started with my first PDI in: Speaker D: only had two trainees between: Speaker D:I just wanted one at a time.
Speaker D:I didn't want two, three, four of them.
Speaker D:I just wanted one, get that person through, then I'd take on another one.
Speaker D:I did that.
Speaker D: got two enough by the end of: Speaker D:And then I applied to go on.
Speaker D: st of March: Speaker D:And then Covid happened.
Speaker D:I never got my opportunity.
Speaker D:I never got my opportunity to do it.
Speaker D:In hindsight now I'm glad I didn't because I think it needs a massive shake up.
Speaker D:It needs to be very different.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:Yeah, I think I want something.
Speaker D:I want something that sets me apart from anybody being able to train a pdi.
Speaker D:I want something that can sort of say this person has worked really hard to be a trainer and continues to work really hard to be a trainer.
Speaker D:But at the same time I don't feel like I need that flag to be on my car waving it around to, to say that I do a good job.
Speaker D:Because the only person who's going to be the judge of whether I do a good job is my own conscious.
Speaker D:And the people who train with me, they're the only people who can give me that reflection ultimately.
Speaker D:And it's the same with a driving test.
Speaker D:It's the same with a standards check, it's the same with an audit.
Speaker D:It means I was good for that amount of Time, it means nothing else.
Speaker D:It means I was okay for that set amount of time.
Speaker D:Doesn't mean I'm like that all the time though.
Speaker A:For anyone listening and thinking about where to get their training from, I second what both these guys have said about having the conversation with the person that you potentially have in training with and also exploring other avenues.
Speaker A:The thing I'm just going to chuck in as a slight addition though is there are currently about 946 podcasts and online memberships and YouTube channels and that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:I would encourage you to explore them.
Speaker A:Not necessarily to get your training from there, but to see what people are saying and to get a feel for that person or that person's personality or that way of doing things.
Speaker A:So that if you are the trainee that just wants to do the bare minimum to get through, well, you can go and find someone that will do that.
Speaker A:If you want to find someone that offers more while there are platforms out there, then you find those people, then you can reach out to them to have that conversation.
Speaker A:So it doesn't have to be, I'm going to say, scrolling through the yellow pages doesn't have to be scrolling through the yellow pages to find driving schools.
Speaker A:There's plenty of ways to find them.
Speaker A:So let's move on then because I mean this can kind of happen before the person passes their part three but let's kind of go the premise of you've qualified for the purpose of this.
Speaker A:You then essentially potentially have to choose whether you're going to be a franchise intructer working part under a franchise under someone else or independent.
Speaker A:So who wants to take this away and talk about the difference and the pluses and the minuses.
Speaker D:We'll let Tom go first this time.
Speaker B:I was just going to say I want to be a gentleman again, but you've been a lady.
Speaker B:What was your question again?
Speaker A:Sorry, talk to me about the franchises versus independent.
Speaker A:It's probably.
Speaker A:You go first actually, because when I reached out to you, one of the first things you said was contract, contract, contract, let's talk.
Speaker A:Yeah, so maybe lead in with that.
Speaker B:I mean, to a certain degree we might need to define what people are thinking as being independent or going down a franchise route.
Speaker B:As we said earlier, if you're going down a trainee license route, you will have to have a sponsoring ADI that looks after that process.
Speaker B:The chances are, I think for the majority of even just non big driving schools, so even just independent trainers, most of the ones that I know have some kind of franchise, when somebody goes on a trainee License, and this is my personal opinion, I think the word franchise has been absolutely ruined within our industry because it has such a negative term and what it really should do.
Speaker B:And I don't want this to be into kind of a rant either.
Speaker B:But like a traditional kind of franchise, if you go into something like a Subway franchise, it's completely different to what a franchise is with the driving school.
Speaker B:You get quite a lot of autonomy within that, as opposed to within a driving school.
Speaker B:Most places don't do that.
Speaker B:You are in a contract and this would be my advice is that if you are going to sign any type of contract or legal document to work with a trainer, whether you're independent or whether you're going on to a bigger franchise, a bigger driving school, it is absolutely worth forking the money out to get a professional to read through that contract before you sign it, because you are going to be investing a lot of time and effort and money within this.
Speaker B:And you need that document to be, as with all contract, it needs to be suitable for both parties.
Speaker B:It can't balance on one favor or the other.
Speaker B:But from my experience, I know some people who've signed contracts before they've even got their PRN number, so they have not even been accepted as a trainee and they've already signed a contract to say they are going to give so much money for set amount of time.
Speaker B:And there have been stuff in the news earlier this year, I won't give any names of driving schools whose contract was not suitable and it favoured the contractor, not the contractee.
Speaker B:And lots of money was taken that shouldn't have been taken.
Speaker B:So my advice to everyone is that you should really be getting this contract read by a professional to make sure that it is fair and if it is not and if it doesn't suit you, don't sign it, even if you have been sold the golden story of how amazing it's going to be.
Speaker A:Well, what should people be considering when they're choosing between a franchise or independence?
Speaker D:Again, what's right for them?
Speaker D:You know, there's a big part of what's right for them in this.
Speaker D:Again, go and sit with somebody who is in a franchise and go and sit with somebody who's independent and, you know, find out what the pitfalls might be of both, because there will be pros and cons for both, but those pros and cons will be different for different people as well, you know, so it, again, it comes very much down to, for me, as an individual decision and I think, you know, we could Talk all, all afternoon about what the pros and cons might be of each of these as well.
Speaker D:But again, it comes down to, well, what's going to work for me, what's going to work for me?
Speaker D:Paying my bills, what's going to work around my family, what's going to, you know, how is this going to impact my working life?
Speaker D:Do I want.
Speaker D:Am I happy to be an individual who will then very much be predominantly an individual, or do I want to have maybe a team of people that I can call on more, you know, more regularly, you know, with a franchise?
Speaker D:So, and what's it.
Speaker D:What's each thing providing me?
Speaker D:You know, not one of us here go to work just for the fun of it.
Speaker D:None of us go just for the fun of it.
Speaker D:We all happen, and I am speaking for the majority, so feel free to correct me.
Speaker D:We just happen to like what we do, and we have a passion for what we do and we enjoy what we do, which is an added bonus.
Speaker D:You know, there's not many people that can say that they don't dread Monday morning.
Speaker D:You know, there's not many people that can say that.
Speaker D:But ultimately, if we won the lottery tonight, we potentially would change how we work.
Speaker D:You know, so we.
Speaker D:We go for the financial stability of what our life looks outside of work.
Speaker D:What's going to pay the mortgage, the rent, what's going to pay for my children to do clubs, what's, you know, whatever it might be.
Speaker D:And the choice between these two should be based around your life, not around what everybody else is doing or, you know, what you think might look good on paper.
Speaker D:And reiterate what Tom said about contracts, you know, is this contract favorable to me?
Speaker D:Not 100%, because it's never going to be.
Speaker D:There's going to be favorable to both.
Speaker D:It's got to be.
Speaker D:That's how a contract works.
Speaker D:But is it.
Speaker D:Is there things in this contract that is favorable to me?
Speaker D:Does that work for me?
Speaker D:Does that.
Speaker D:Am I happy to be flexible on the stuff that isn't fully favorable to me, but to the driving school I might franchise from?
Speaker D:Can I understand why this clause is in here?
Speaker D:To protect the franchisor and am I happy to sign for that?
Speaker D:Do I want to work by myself?
Speaker D:Do I want to have to do the marketing, the advertising, the managing, the, you know, do I want to do all of that stuff?
Speaker D:I purposely pay an accountant because I do not want to account for my own business.
Speaker D:You know, so I pay people to do things because I don't want.
Speaker D:Have to do them in my business.
Speaker D:That's got to be a factor in if I was going to be an independent because am I going to do all of those things by myself or is the cost, have I got to put the cost of that in as well?
Speaker D:What's the marketing going to cost me?
Speaker D:What's the advertising going to cost me?
Speaker D:Does this balance out with being in a franchise?
Speaker D:You know there's loads and loads of different things there but ultimately it comes down to your life.
Speaker D:Why do you go to work on Monday morning?
Speaker A:I one of a small number of people that is an employed driving instructor.
Speaker A:I do two days a week for a driving school called William Merritt which is a disability driving school and I'm employed in that role.
Speaker A:But I also have my own Dragon school TC drive that I own as a business, I run as a business.
Speaker A:I am self employed, I'm the business owner of that and very, very few people in this industry are employed and I think it's something that gets missed a lot.
Speaker A:We didn't speak about it in the training aspect earlier.
Speaker A:The idea that as someone coming into industry you are going to have to run this business, even if you are a franchisee, you are still running that franchise.
Speaker A:So Tom, is that something that you think goes missed a lot?
Speaker A:And I suppose the second part of that is should that maybe not should could that be included in some of the training we're doing?
Speaker B:I'm going to reverse those.
Speaker B:So go to the second question first.
Speaker B:Yes, it should be.
Speaker B:Business management I think is just as much part of becoming a driving instructor as knowing how to educate somebody.
Speaker B:Because as you've just said there Emma, I have an accountant, I have a phenomenal accountant because I'm not a specialist in numbers.
Speaker B:In fact, you know, I struggle to get the 5 and 25% earlier.
Speaker B:So that's why I pay someone else to do that because I want an expert to do it and I want somebody in the top of their field to be doing it.
Speaker B:So being I'm quite lucky because even when I first left college I went into being self employed so I've spent most of my working career as a self employed person.
Speaker B:So I have some knowledge.
Speaker B:But we get might be the same for you Emma.
Speaker B:We get lots of people who come to us as trainee instructors and they have always been paye, so they have always had someone doing their kind of workings out and things like this.
Speaker B:So yeah, they have to look after their own finances but they've not had to do tax returns, they've not had to understand national insurance, they've not had to understand deadlines and that, you know, your tax year is slightly different generally for a calendar year and all of these things.
Speaker B:And it can just be something as simple as not recognizing about what you can claim and can't claim for as a business owner and what your personal allowance is and what you can earn before you have to start to pay tax.
Speaker B:So I sound a little bit cynical here, but this is my personal experience.
Speaker B:I found that quite a lot of larger companies that have franchise options, they don't seem to want to teach that to trainees because then the trainee is more independent and they don't need the franchisor to look after them.
Speaker B:But as I said earlier, my kind of way forward for people is you have the qualification process, but I'm training you to be a driving instructor and part of that is understanding how to manage your business.
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier, Tom, about Subway.
Speaker A:I tend to use McDonald's as an example, but Subway does work as well.
Speaker A:It's just I once word McDonald's, so it's in my brain.
Speaker A:But I do stand by that.
Speaker A:McDonald's is the best example of a franchise in the world.
Speaker A:They didn't invent it, but it was kind of like they owned it.
Speaker A:And I relate this to someone as a driving instructor because McDonald's do not provide customers for their franchises.
Speaker A:I do not believe it's up to the, the franchise to provide pupils for its franchisees.
Speaker A:Now, yes, when the training aspect comes in, as we've spoke about before, that is their job and, and it would make sense for them to provide it when you first start, but long term, I would suggest to anyone listening now, that is, wherever they're along on this path, start looking at how you're going to get pupils in.
Speaker A:So if for every reason you decide to leave your franchise or go independent or whatever that might be, you are in a position to get your most important thing, which is customers.
Speaker A:You cannot earn a living as a driving structure without customers.
Speaker A:So you need to know how to get that in.
Speaker A:But that may be another podcast for another day.
Speaker A:Is there anything else you two would like to touch on regarding this entire subject or today?
Speaker D:I think the only thing I would touch on is just what you've said there about, you know, a franchise isn't just about.
Speaker D:If you, if you're going to be looking for a franchise, you want to look at what that franchise is offering outside of this pupil quota.
Speaker D:You know, they may help, they may advertise for you.
Speaker D:You know, they may have a Bigger presence on social media or whatever that might help you to capture customers and things like that, but it's not their job to do that.
Speaker D:But look at what the franchise is offering you when you make that decision.
Speaker D:You know, is there a regular cpd, continuous professional development?
Speaker D:Is there, is there any of that going on for the team?
Speaker D:Is the team gatherings?
Speaker D:Is the social, is there a social element to it?
Speaker D:You know, it's a lonely job or it can be if we make it that way, you know, so what is that team offering you?
Speaker D:What support are you getting?
Speaker D:You know, is there wider net networks from that franchise that pass down messages from associations maybe, or, you know, things like that.
Speaker D:And you know, look at that wider scope.
Speaker D:Don't make it based on, on financial and pupil commitment alone because there's much more to a lot of franchises, some franchises, if you want that team element.
Speaker D:I know I can think of a few of our team members who are there because they want to be part of a team and that's the sole reason for being in a franchise.
Speaker D:It's got nothing to do with any, any other aspect.
Speaker D:They just like being part of a team because they don't want to work alone, you know, So I think that would be my last point is, is find out what the franchise is offering you because it's potentially a lot more than just the pupils.
Speaker A:Emma mentioned associations there.
Speaker A:Something that we kind of mentioned before we started recording was the idea of joining an association.
Speaker A:Obviously, I'm sure you and I would put the ADI NJC at the top of that.
Speaker A:Others are available, but what would be the benefit, apparently so what would be the benefits of someone joining an association?
Speaker A:A PDI specifically?
Speaker A:And yeah, why should there?
Speaker B:Well, like Emma said, it can sometimes be a lonely job and to have an association there.
Speaker B:And I would say this for the three main associations because we, you and me, Terry, we work with the ADI njc, we're on the governing committee.
Speaker B:But I work alongside the DIA and the msa and I'm confident that they, like us, have knowledgeable people within those companies, within those parts of the industry.
Speaker B:So if you do have queries about your trainer, if you do have queries or questions about the process you're going through, to have somebody there in your corner that you can ring up and say, actually, I need some impartial advice.
Speaker B:Watch.
Speaker B:What should I be doing here?
Speaker B:Is this correct?
Speaker B:I don't know what I don't know.
Speaker B:And to have that opportunity, I think is really good.
Speaker B:But alongside that is you get the opportunity to see other training opportunities.
Speaker B:And you know, with the ADI njc we offer online training, we offer in person training as well, so you can come and see outside of what your trainer tells you and that might just confirm that actually your trainer is giving you some really good information.
Speaker B:You may disagree with what's been said and that's absolutely fine.
Speaker B:So it's having that community there, it's having that backing there and I don't want this to sound as a negative thing, but like with all kind of insurance, if you do have a complaint made against you, that can be a very scary thing for an adi, let alone for a PDI to have that official letter to come through inviting you to go for an interview, a formal interview at your local test centre because a complaint has been made.
Speaker B:Having the opportunity to chat to somebody who deals with this on a daily basis and giving you quality advice, that is just invaluable because generally if you want to go to a solicitor to go and do that, you can add thousands of pounds on top of that advice.
Speaker B:So these are the benefits that I think just every trainee should be looking at, even when they first start, but especially before they start teaching is are you a member of a local, of a national association and in fact are you a member of a local association?
Speaker B:Because that's another great way of getting to know other instructors and being more of a community.
Speaker A:£4.50Amonth I think as well, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, correct.
Speaker B:For the AdinJC or if you're a member of a local association who is a group with the ADI njc, you will normally get that half price.
Speaker A:Well, I refer to this as the ultimate PDI podcast, but we cannot possibly cover every conceivable question that people may have.
Speaker A:So if they've got any, if you've got any further questions or concerns, you can write to me face and you'll find links in the show notes, but you can also reach out to my guests.
Speaker A:So first of all, Mr. Tom Stenson, do you want to take a moment to tell people where they can find you?
Speaker B:You can find me at the adinjc, you can also find me at Bright Coaching or at my driving school, which is drive up training.
Speaker A:And you can also reach out to Emma Cottington.
Speaker A:Where can people find you?
Speaker D:The usual social media platforms.
Speaker D:Other than that, you'll find up driver training and the.
Speaker D:I just want to mention the group that we've got.
Speaker D:I think we're getting a lot of PDIs at the moment, seeking support emotionally because it's quite stressful so you'll find my group this book called L Plates and Headspace and that's there for of the emotional and well being support of well trained for ADIS as well.
Speaker A:Well, big thank you to you guys for joining me.
Speaker A:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker B:Thanks for having us.
Speaker D:Yes, thanks for having us.
Speaker A:The instructor podcast with Terry Cook talking.
Speaker B:With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker A:About what drives them.
