Driving Instructor Development
Today we're joined by fellow driving instrcutor and podcaster Mick Knowles, who give us a wonderful insght into his past and how that shaped him. He also shares how he uses his past experoences to his advantages in his current endevours.
Mick shares some great stories around how he's helped people learm to drive that other instructors had simply given up on.He also has some words of wisdom for anyone looking to start a new venture.
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Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome and thank you for joining us on the instructor podcast where every week we're joined by experts and innovators, leaders and game changers so we can hold a mirror up at the instructor industry and see where we can improve and raise our standards.
Speaker B:So if you're ready, we'll make a start.
Speaker C:So welcome to episode 10 of the Instructor podcast.
Speaker C:I'm Terry Cook of TC Drive and the ever expanding TCU.
Speaker C:It's great to have you aboard to the show.
Speaker C:Hope you're enjoying it and if you are, make sure you follow and subscribe wherever you're listening to this drops into your feed every Sunday morning and and.
Speaker B:Give it a share as well.
Speaker C:If you know any other driver or anyone else that may find the shows interesting, make sure you recommend us to them.
Speaker C:And if you feel extra generous, go leave us a little five star review as well.
Speaker C:Now in today's episode we are joined by Mick Knowles.
Speaker C:Now, Mick Knowles is a driving instructor and a fellow podcaster and he talks about his days in the army and his experience with ptsd and he also talks about how what he learned in the army and his experience with PTSD and how that impacts him as an instructor and what he uses and what he doesn't uses and then even how to that's impacted him as a podcaster.
Speaker C:So it's been great speaking to Mick.
Speaker C:Appreciate him coming on.
Speaker C:Now, one thing I will just mention before we start is we did have some problems with the audio that may or may not have involved a glass of wine, but we had some problems with the audio.
Speaker C:So we've lost the first few minutes of the show.
Speaker C:Don't worry too much about that.
Speaker C:We're coming at a good point and you can enjoy a good hour of conversation there.
Speaker C:Anyway, there's still a lot of quality in it, but we just missed the introductory bit.
Speaker C:But you've got it from me there.
Speaker C:Anyway, so let's make a start and hopefully you enjoy the show.
Speaker B:You came from the army into being a driving instructor.
Speaker B:What skills have you found transferable from, you know, being the veteran that you've been able to take forward into teaching and instructing?
Speaker A:Can you hear me better now?
Speaker A:I've just turned the volume up more.
Speaker B:100.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've just realized what, what was wrong with it?
Speaker A:What skills did I bring in from the Army?
Speaker A:It's, it's totally different, but it's not, you know, when you look at the skill sets that we had.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was, I, I remember one of my, in fact, two of my young Lads, when they found out I was getting out the army and going to be a driving instructor, they both turned around and said, how are you gonna, how are you gonna cope?
Speaker A:You'll just start shouting at them and smashing them and stuff.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Because there's, there's that side of it which, the discipline side.
Speaker A:But I suppose one of the big things that's.
Speaker A:That I've found is that the calmness, really.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:In the army, it's sometimes for the discipline.
Speaker A:You have to shower people, etc.
Speaker A:Etc.
Speaker A:In this job, I don't, you know, it's totally, you know, totally different.
Speaker A:But the jobs I was doing in the army were, shall we just say, high, high stress jobs.
Speaker A:When you're, when you're patrolling and you're searching for IEDs and you don't know whether your next footstep is your last, that's high pressure, high stakes, high stress.
Speaker A:So you learn to sort of do these jobs with a sort of a chillness in your, in you, if you know what I mean.
Speaker A:So bringing that into this is one of the main sort of skill sets that I brought across.
Speaker A:Not to get stressed about it, but I always remember my first, first time in the test center, some instructor turned around and said I would never last because the stress would get to me.
Speaker A:And I'm like, what stress?
Speaker A:And he turned down and said, well, the stress of the job, the pupils are out to kill you, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker A:And I turned around and said, can you just explain that a bit more?
Speaker A:He said, yeah, yeah, it's simple.
Speaker A:The pupils out to kill you, you won't last 10 minutes in this job.
Speaker A:And I just turned around and said, look, mate, I'm sorry, but in my last job, people were out to kill me.
Speaker A:This job they're not.
Speaker A:If they're out to kill me, then I'm not doing my job right.
Speaker A:And some guy who was sat in the corner just piped up and went, I'm with you as well.
Speaker A:I'll make a army.
Speaker A:So the calmness under pressure is a great one.
Speaker A:Also the teaching side of it as well.
Speaker A:I've been teaching in the army for years and years, more or less full 25 years, different subjects, different different locations, etc.
Speaker A:So to bring, to bring that in and that coaching element, and people think, oh, there's no coaching in the army.
Speaker A:There is, there is coaching in the army.
Speaker A:But to bring that skill set as well from the army into, into driving, instructing as well, I found that pretty, you know, pretty easy, transferable skill.
Speaker A:But Also the.
Speaker A:My own driving.
Speaker A:You know, when you.
Speaker A:When you look at some of the places I've driven and some of the things I've done, one thing that always comes to mind is driving a HGV, a 4 tonner, as it was then, over a root called Route Triangle in Bosnia in the middle of winter with guys in the back as well.
Speaker A:Just add a bit more pressure to you.
Speaker A:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:And you're driving on roads there, that mountain passes that's, you know, sheer drops, and you're driving on, you know, snow and ice and everything over the top of it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So that skill set there as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll bring that into it, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, I've got zero military experience at all.
Speaker B:There's nothing military in me or my family going back for generations.
Speaker B:But my sort of.
Speaker B:Take what you said there is.
Speaker B:Like you spoke about discipline.
Speaker B:I would imagine that discipline in the army isn't about shouting and kicking off.
Speaker B:It's about being disciplined in the appropriate way for that situation.
Speaker B:So that the discipline is.
Speaker B:A driving instructor, I suppose, will be the discipline of not shouting at your students.
Speaker B:The discipline of controlling yourself in that situation.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And you've got.
Speaker B:Sorry, go on.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's.
Speaker A:There's times.
Speaker A:It's like everything.
Speaker A:There's a time and a place and sometimes you've got to.
Speaker A:In, in my previous job, you've got to shout and scream to get people to do things, otherwise things are going to go wrong.
Speaker A:And also it's.
Speaker A:It's a case of if you don't show on screen, they're not going to hear you when there's things going off.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's.
Speaker A:But it's also that flicking that switch.
Speaker A:So you've got to go from calm to.
Speaker A:Right, let's go, let's.
Speaker A:Yeah, let's nail it.
Speaker A:And it's that calmness there that you can bring into the.
Speaker A:Into the car and just keep it chilled.
Speaker B:I think it's good that we can take things from past experiences and bring it into this, because I've done a variety of different jobs.
Speaker B:I've worked on building sites, I worked in McDonald's, I run McDonald's stores, or professional gambler.
Speaker B:I've done a variety of different stuff and it's interesting, the different qualities that you can bring into this.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of that is because generally we're working one on one.
Speaker B:So you're adapting for that person.
Speaker B:You don't have to go and put on performance for 20 people.
Speaker B:You you work in one on one.
Speaker B:And I think that a lot of people don't realize that.
Speaker B:It's interesting what you said, the comment from that over instructor at the test center as well, because I think that brings me on to the next thing I was going to speak about the kind of the flippant comment or this ain't right for you or the, you know, you won't handle this.
Speaker B:And part of the reason behind this podcast is to, to try and raise some standards within the industry.
Speaker B:And that's not me saying that everyone's a crap instructor.
Speaker B:It isn't.
Speaker B:There's a lot of quality out there, but it's looking at people like yourself doing something different.
Speaker B:And that brings us back to your podcast.
Speaker B:Now just tell us a little bit about your podcast and sort of what the premises behind it and why you released it.
Speaker A:Well, it's something I've been thinking about for a couple of years.
Speaker A:I listen to podcasts quite a lot and have done for a number of years.
Speaker A:And I find that every time I listen to a podcast I'm actually learning.
Speaker A:You can put music on in the car and it's just music.
Speaker A:You're not learning.
Speaker A:So, you know, if, if I'm going down south, for example, to attend a course, I will have a podcast on in the car and I will listen to that podcast rather than music.
Speaker A:So I've always, I've always been interested in them, always thought I wouldn't mind doing them, but it was that thing of what am I, what am I going to do it on?
Speaker A:You know, just doing a podcast on training an instructor to teach somebody to turn left is boring.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, absolutely boring.
Speaker A:But when I looked at it and thought about, I thought, you know, I could do it on a holistic approach.
Speaker A:So we're looking at business, sorry, we're looking at developing these certain areas like business, instructing mental health, mental health awareness, mindfulness, etc.
Speaker A:Etc.
Speaker A:Etc.
Speaker A:And it goes on and on, loads of different aspects to it that we can develop and hopefully these podcasts will help to, you know, people listening to them and for them to develop.
Speaker A:But it's going.
Speaker A:So that, that was the sort of the idea, the way to do it.
Speaker A:I didn't want to do it with me just saying, right, you need to do this in your business or that in your business, because again, that's just not me.
Speaker A:So using the contacts that I've got and finding people as well, I decided that I would get guests on from inside and outside the industry and chat to them.
Speaker A:About their backstories and hopefully by that backstory that might help people.
Speaker A:So for example, the first one I did was a guy called Tony McNally.
Speaker A:I've never met, never met the guy before.
Speaker A:Saw him on Twitter, followed him on Twitter, had a chat with him, asked him if he'd come on.
Speaker A:Tony's a Faultlands veteran, PTSD sufferer.
Speaker A:So he turned to writing to help with his ptsd.
Speaker A:First book he wrote was basically his.
Speaker A:His story of the Falklands War, his part in it and then after that Israel, a number of non fictional books or fiction story books.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Can't think what is that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So listening to people who've listened to that and what they've said, you know, his story's helped.
Speaker A:So if it just helps one person, it's, it's helping.
Speaker A:So yeah, just by getting, getting people on and listen to their backstories.
Speaker A:The one coming out on Friday is a great one.
Speaker A:The triple amputee from Afghan.
Speaker A:And they're not all military.
Speaker A:There's a number of military or ex military veterans that I have interviewed, but they're not all military.
Speaker A:Yeah, I've got world record holders coming on all sorts of different things and just, just from their, their stories, you know, whether it's mental health or a business, you know, or an instructor that's wrote a book or got a new, a new website or something like that that we can plug into and learn from.
Speaker A:Like Kevfield one that Kevs came out last Friday.
Speaker A:Friday just gone.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hopefully, you know, we.
Speaker A:One person learns and it's achieved its, it's achieved its goal.
Speaker A:But so, yeah, that's, that's the, that's the podcast started it, this, this lockdown.
Speaker A:But it's been sort of in the, in the process of coming for the last couple of years, I suppose.
Speaker B:What is there like a next step for this?
Speaker B:Do you have a next step in mind or are you just happier where it is at the minute?
Speaker A:I'm never happy.
Speaker A:What I mean by that is I'm never happy with just going along, if you know what I mean.
Speaker A:So there's always other things to do.
Speaker A:So yeah.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker A:Similar to yourself.
Speaker A:Mine are all done on Zoom, so I've got audio and video as well.
Speaker A:At the moment.
Speaker A:It's just the audio that's going out.
Speaker A:I have got plans for the video to go out as well.
Speaker A:So it'll become vlog.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Video cast or whatever.
Speaker A:I can't remember now it's called.
Speaker A:So that that will come out at some point.
Speaker A:We probably need lockdown 4 for me to get a chance to do that, though.
Speaker A:Hopefully we don't get that lockdown, though.
Speaker A:So there's that.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, just the sort of the guests that I'm wanting to get.
Speaker A:I wanted to get sort of the next level of guests, you know, the guests I've had so far.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:But what I mean is I want to get some.
Speaker A:How can I put it?
Speaker A:Some celebrity guests on it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, because their stories are different again.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And then take it from.
Speaker A:From there, from the.
Speaker A:From that level.
Speaker A:You know, I've also looked at merchandise and that sort of stuff, but that's probably further down the line.
Speaker A:And also sponsorship as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, at the moment, expert instructor training sponsor it.
Speaker A:But I am hopeful that there is a company that I'm sort of chatting to at the moment.
Speaker A:Hopefully they will come on board as well.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's.
Speaker A:But we'll just.
Speaker A:We'll just play it by ear and keep developing it and, you know, keep building it as.
Speaker A:As we go.
Speaker B:How have you found getting people to come on?
Speaker B:Have you had any resistance there?
Speaker B:Has that been quite easy?
Speaker A:I've had.
Speaker A:I've had a couple of people went, oh, no, it's not.
Speaker A:It's not for me.
Speaker A:But mainly most people are.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And a lot of them are coming to me now asking to come on, you know, rather than me approaching them.
Speaker A:And I've also got other people that listen to it messaging saying, you need to get this person on.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker A:Episode two, which is Bish.
Speaker A:Andy Bishop, a good mate of mine, he actually came on the recommendation of somebody else that I still haven't managed to get on the podcast.
Speaker A:He's that busy.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's an ex Olympics, British Olympic team skier or biathlon or something like that, but it's now coaching.
Speaker A:So there was a.
Speaker A:There was a small window between.
Speaker A:I think he was in Norway and going to Italy, but we didn't manage to tie him down.
Speaker A:He's now just finished the season in Italy, so I think that's him back now.
Speaker A:I will be back shortly, so hopefully I'll tie him down.
Speaker A:But yeah, he.
Speaker A:He put us onto Bishop and I've known Bish for years, but I just hadn't thought of him.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that was.
Speaker A:That was a good one to, you know, to get recommended.
Speaker A:And then there's others as well that have.
Speaker A:That have contacted me, said they.
Speaker A:They'd like.
Speaker A:They'd like to come on as a guest.
Speaker B:So is that so is that something you're after?
Speaker B:You welcoming people, contacting you?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So anyone with anyone listening to this with a story to tell or a story share, feel free to get in touch with Mick and me, actually.
Speaker B:But, yeah, get in touch because, you know, we don't know everyone, or you don't know everyone.
Speaker B:So people getting in touch with you and then coming on.
Speaker B:Just regarding the podcast itself and the episode you've done so far, is there one that stands out here is the one that's maybe had the biggest impact on you?
Speaker A:I think they all do, actually.
Speaker A:Yeah, they all have some impact on me a little bit.
Speaker A:I'll just digress a little bit, give you a bit more of my backstory, and then you'll see another reason for me doing this.
Speaker A:2006, I was.
Speaker A:I was in Iraq.
Speaker A:I came back from Iraq two months later.
Speaker A:I. I had a little issue, shall we say?
Speaker A:And I was diagnosed with PTSD 18 months later of treatment with a psychiatrist.
Speaker A:No tablets.
Speaker A:I didn't do any form of medication.
Speaker A:It's just psychiatric treatment.
Speaker A:Not in a hospital or anything.
Speaker A:I was at home every night.
Speaker A:I just used to go and see this psychiatrist every week or 10 days.
Speaker A:But it had a bit of an effect on my career.
Speaker A:I wasn't allowed to even go and count weapons, which, six months after getting all clear that I went to Afghanistan.
Speaker A:But then it's still there.
Speaker A:You never get rid of it.
Speaker A:You never get rid of your pkd.
Speaker A:It's still there.
Speaker A:You just manage it, you know how to deal with it sort of thing.
Speaker A:So a number of years ago, I was doing business, marketing events, business networking events, rather.
Speaker A:And one of the guys turned around to me and said, why don't.
Speaker A:Why don't you guest speaker?
Speaker A:Because everyone, they have a guest speaker that stands up for 20 minutes and talks about something.
Speaker A:I turned around and said, talk about driving and something.
Speaker A:It's boring.
Speaker A:You know, people fall asleep, but, you know, stop.
Speaker A:He went, no, no, no, your story.
Speaker A:So I agreed to it eventually and I stood up and I did.
Speaker A:I did one from that one.
Speaker A:And this is talking about my PTSD and how I got it.
Speaker A:Yeah, from that one.
Speaker A:I was then booked that day for another two or three, and then it just snowballed.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And the advice I give to guys that I know that are suffering is talk, you know, talk about it.
Speaker A:Get it out.
Speaker A:Get it out your system.
Speaker A:So that sort of was part of the reason for doing the podcast as well.
Speaker A:To help the guys and help other people.
Speaker A:Not you know not just the person, the guest, but also the people listening and also to help me.
Speaker A:So going back to that question of has any of them influenced you the most?
Speaker A:It's not out yet, but there is one that I did with Mandy Small.
Speaker A:I recorded it last week the day before I recorded the triple amputee.
Speaker A:The triple amputee has jumped the gun because of something that he's doing, which is unbelievable if I'll tell you.
Speaker A:He's got one arm, no legs, just one arm.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:He's just ran 5Ks for charity.
Speaker A:He's now going to swim with one arm, 1K 1km in the open water in the sea.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, mental.
Speaker A:So that's the reason why that's come forward.
Speaker A:But the day before I recorded him, I recorded Mandy Small.
Speaker A:And I said to, to Mark, I said, I've just recorded Mandy's story yesterday.
Speaker A:Man, it's just, it's just hit me.
Speaker A:Is X Raf married to a former soldier who committed suicide.
Speaker A:And that one, that one hit me because, you know, they had a small, small child and the fact that he didn't talk and we know, we, we all know now as veterans that we've got to talk and there was something in there, those that's mentioned in the podcast that I found, you know, shocking.
Speaker A:And if that hadn't happened then, you know, he might have been with us till today.
Speaker A:But his son is superb, does a lot of stuff for charity and he's only 13 now.
Speaker A:He is.
Speaker A:So yeah, that one, that one had a big impact.
Speaker A:But all of them, all of them have been great.
Speaker A:I've loved recording every single one of them.
Speaker A:I think I've done 15 or 16, something like that now.
Speaker A:I've got one tomorrow actually as well to, to record.
Speaker A:But yeah, some.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting from, from my perspective, sort of listening to your podcast and also speaking to you now, there is always someone worse off than you and sometimes, well, largely people massively worse off than you.
Speaker B:You know, I was complaining yesterday because I rolled my ankle in garden, but you're telling me now about someone that's, you know, triple amputee and is off swimming in, in the ocean and you know, it kind of puts that into perspective.
Speaker B:And yeah, we have to be honestly realize each problems are individual to that person.
Speaker B:You know, it's probably unfair to compare, but I think when you take a step back and look at it, we all need to do that sometimes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is it okay if I ask you a couple of Questions about your experience with ptsd.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I'm fine.
Speaker B:You don't want to answer anything.
Speaker B:I'm just saying.
Speaker B:No, I'm not going to pry too much.
Speaker B:I have to lie down.
Speaker B:The ptsd, just, just.
Speaker B:Again, it's not something I'm massively familiar with.
Speaker B:But that's post traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker B:That's correct, yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:One of the things that stuff for me, when you were telling that story, if I've misheard this, I apologize, but you had that or developed that, or I don't know what the term is there in Iraq.
Speaker B:And then when you had.
Speaker B:And this isn't the correct term, I don't know how to phrase this.
Speaker B:When you got over that, you then went to Afghanistan.
Speaker B:Is that timeline correct?
Speaker B:Yeah, that just threw me.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker A:It fails most people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm not saying anyone's got any regrets, but if someone was in that situation now, so whether it's, you know, a military thing or a personal thing or something else, would you advise that or would you advise them to do something different?
Speaker B:You know, you have that issue with ptsd, would you say, yeah, now go to Afghanistan, or would you maybe suggest in that same situation, take a breather.
Speaker A:Everyone's different, right?
Speaker A:Everyone's different.
Speaker A:What the.
Speaker A:The reason I did it, Iraq was quite kinetic.
Speaker A:There was certain things happened on that tour that I was caught up in, shall we say?
Speaker A:And I'd been back two months and everything was fine.
Speaker A:And it was bonfire night, and I didn't even realize, you know, I just.
Speaker A:I was stood there with my recce sergeant.
Speaker A:So at this point, I was a staff sergeant.
Speaker A:I had.
Speaker A:My recce sergeant was one rank below me.
Speaker A:He was stood there with his kids.
Speaker A:And I've got my kids.
Speaker A:And we're watching the.
Speaker A:The bonfire and then the fireworks start.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:My daughter on my shoulders.
Speaker A:My daughter at the time was three.
Speaker A:Three, four.
Speaker A:Four, yeah, four.
Speaker A:She would have been.
Speaker A:And these fireworks went up, were going off, and all I remember was just saying to push.
Speaker A:Push my head down to my daughter.
Speaker A:And when she sat my shoulders, they used to put your head on the.
Speaker A:And sort of push your head down.
Speaker A:It used to ache and I hated it, but I was telling her to do it.
Speaker A:And my.
Speaker A:My recce sergeant John Dave Rather.
Speaker A:Dave noticed this, realized there's something wrong, and then we got back to my house, he had a chat with me.
Speaker A:Yeah, whatever.
Speaker A:Went into work the next day.
Speaker A:He'd already gone into work early, spoke to the boss, and between them, they'd organized an appointment the doctors for me.
Speaker A:So I was straight into the doctor.
Speaker A:Fortunately, where I was based was a.
Speaker A:It was actually an RAF camp.
Speaker A:So there was a psychiatrist there because it was, it was a.
Speaker A:An active flying camp, so they have psychiatrists.
Speaker A:So I was strange to see her session one told her the story that was the issue, went through that and then she sent me home to, to put it all on paper and I ended up with 19 pages of A4 typed out.
Speaker A:The story was that long, you know, this whole thing that had happened.
Speaker A:And then we just over time went through it and got it down to the actual root cause of it.
Speaker A:And then 18 months later she signed me up, signed me back onto normal works.
Speaker A:Then what happens?
Speaker A:That would have been about the February time, I think February 08.
Speaker A:Then what happened was we had a tasking to go to Gibraltar and they wanted somebody to go on the recce.
Speaker A:So I was chosen to go on the recce.
Speaker A:I'll do that.
Speaker A:No dramas.
Speaker A:Four days away in Gibraltar.
Speaker A:The recce took me about half a day.
Speaker A:The rest of the time I spent in a casemates for anybody that knows Gibraltar, which is where all the bars are.
Speaker A:And then came back and then we went to Gibraltar for the three weeks that went fine and then it got to about.
Speaker A:It must have been July time, something like that.
Speaker A:And I remember I was at football, I think I was watching my, my lab playing football for the school and I got phone call from one of my bosses who turned around and said there's a job come, come up for you.
Speaker A:You've been trolled.
Speaker A:You've been selected to go and do this job.
Speaker A:Okay, what is it?
Speaker A:Well, it's.
Speaker A:It's up to you whether you take it or not, you know, considering what's happened.
Speaker A:And it turned out that it was Afghan in Kandahar, desk job, but one rank above.
Speaker A:So I said yes straight away.
Speaker A:And the reason I said yes is for closure.
Speaker A:You know, that incident.
Speaker A:I've got a. I've got to prove to myself for closure that I can still do my job.
Speaker A:So the things he told me was, it's Kandahar.
Speaker A:It was a desk job.
Speaker A:It was Kandahar, Slipper city, you know, cushy there.
Speaker A:And the fourth one was, it's I'll be what, getting paid for one for a rank higher than what I actually am.
Speaker A:Out of them four things, there's only one of them things that was true.
Speaker A:I got paid for higher rank.
Speaker A:That was it.
Speaker A:It wasn't in Kandahar, but we didn't know.
Speaker A:He didn't know.
Speaker A:He didn't lie to me.
Speaker A:It's just what come down.
Speaker A:I found out a few days later when I made the phone call to the, to the unit I was gonna go with but it was upcoming, it was in Sangin.
Speaker A:So again, another volatile hotspot but chance for me to prove that that was okay and closure.
Speaker A:And I told the guys once I got down to this unit because it was, it was a tri service so the guys were coming in from Navy, army and the raf and I told the rest of my team, you know, about my history so they were aware of it and if, if the hit the fan then and I went wobble then I'd be straight back home.
Speaker A:But now, fortunately I proved approved more than the worth and did my job.
Speaker A:And since then it's, yeah, it's, it has its ups and downs, it comes back at times, but it's manageable.
Speaker A:You know, I know, I know what it is now and yeah, I can put it to bed.
Speaker B:Well, I appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker B:The term ptsd, do you think that is used too flippantly now?
Speaker A:Yes and no.
Speaker A:What I mean by that is there is two.
Speaker A:There's still people out there that's saying that they've got it and I know that for a fact.
Speaker A:You know, I, I had one in my unit that tried to get out of something because of PTSD and he was, he went to see the shrink and the shrimp.
Speaker A:No, it's fine.
Speaker A:Nothing wrong, nothing wrong with it.
Speaker A:So there is that element.
Speaker A:But it's a, it's a horrible, it's a horrible thing.
Speaker A:You know, fortunately I'm lucky I've come out the other side.
Speaker A:But there's guys I know that haven't and are still suffering.
Speaker A:So no, it's yes and no.
Speaker A:Those that have got it, then, yeah, they've got it.
Speaker A:But there is some people that, yeah, like anything, people turn around, tell you they've got a bad back, won't they?
Speaker A:Just to get out of things.
Speaker B:The reason I ask that is I am kind of bringing it back rounds to the driving now in a long winded kind of way in.
Speaker B:I think about when students come for a driving lesson and they might talk about having anxiety.
Speaker B:And it's not anxiety, it's nerves.
Speaker B:They're a bit nervous.
Speaker B:Yes, there are people that have genuine anxiety.
Speaker B:There are that come for lessons, but they're a bit nervous.
Speaker B:And I just felt that there was a parallel there whether that, you know, you said there's people such as yourself who have genuine issues with ptsd and like I said, some that are getting the help they need.
Speaker B:In fact, just on that, what if you knew someone that you've said there's people saying they've got these issues, but again, the help, what advice would you give them?
Speaker B:Just find someone to talk to.
Speaker A:Or there is, there is a lot of charities out there that are doing some great work that.
Speaker A:Supporting military.
Speaker A:Yeah, Veterans in action being one sapper support being another one.
Speaker A:Contact them.
Speaker A:If you're not a veteran, look at other charities and there are some non military charities that are doing great work as well.
Speaker A:Go and see your doctor speak though.
Speaker A:First of all, you know, don't bottle it up, don't be afraid of it.
Speaker A:The stigma is part of the worst, is probably the worst thing.
Speaker A:The stigma around mental health and mental health covers everything.
Speaker A:Anxiety right down, right up to ptsd, etc, severe ptsd.
Speaker A:That stigma of mental health is one of the worst things because people are scared to talk about it.
Speaker A:You know, when, when I was in the army, it was before my incident, it was, get on with it, man up.
Speaker A:And then, you know, when it hit me, it was like, Jesus.
Speaker A:So I had people coming, coming to me after, after tours, after they'd been on tour, saying, mick, you know, I'm waking up, you know, bed's absolutely soaked.
Speaker A:Waking up in, you know, hot, you know, hot sweats.
Speaker A:Okay, let's say, let's go have a chat and, you know, I just listen to them, let them get, get off the chest and then we'd, you know, we put them in, get them in front of the dock and get them into your shrink, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker A:But I personally, I would, I prefer somebody to go and see a shrink rather than taking tablets.
Speaker A:Yeah, the tablets for me, what I've seen with other guys have made their life even worse.
Speaker A:So, yeah, talk about it.
Speaker A:See shrink.
Speaker B:Would you say that your experience both in the military and with what we've just discussed has actually.
Speaker C:Helped you help.
Speaker B:Learner drivers that suffer with nerves, anxiety, panic attacks?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:I always refer back to when I get asked this question, I always come back to this one.
Speaker A:I had a learner who was bipolar.
Speaker A:She's brilliant, absolutely off her head, superb.
Speaker A:But she'd been told by a number of people, including driving instructors and her psychiatrist, that she would never be able to pass a test.
Speaker A:She passed first time with two driver faults.
Speaker A:But part of the reason, and this is what she said, is that we were on the same wavelength because of my issues and her issues, even though bipolar and ptsd totally different.
Speaker A:We sort of.
Speaker A:We hit it off and we're on the same wavelength.
Speaker A:And I remember she'd get in the car and she just turned around and how are you?
Speaker A:I've had a crap day.
Speaker A:I'll just start laughing and go, oh, wibble, let's both be wibbled together.
Speaker A:And it just cheer up.
Speaker A:And then there was another occasion when she said, I'll try and keep this clean.
Speaker A:She said we were doing.
Speaker A:Trying to work on.
Speaker A:On her control in the car without using the brakes.
Speaker A:And she said, she said, you're effing contradicting what you just said.
Speaker A:How can I do this without using my brakes?
Speaker A:Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:Do you want a demonst.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker A:So we swapped over that I drove this little route without using the brakes and she gets back in the garage.
Speaker A:I can't effing do this.
Speaker A:Well, you haven't tried yet.
Speaker A:And we had a chat and then she got in the.
Speaker A:She set off and she nailed it.
Speaker A:And she, you know, she was over the moon, but she said to me, if it was another instructor, she wouldn't have done it.
Speaker A:But because it's me and what we've both been through or going through, etc.
Speaker A:She believes in me.
Speaker A:Excuse me.
Speaker A:So we hit it off and absolutely smashed the test first time.
Speaker A:And she had great pleasure telling her psychiatrist that she'd passed the test, even though he said you'd never pass it.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's brilliant.
Speaker B:And I find that fascinating because at.
Speaker C:The core of that, what you've done.
Speaker B:Is you've air bonded with your student and B, you've identified where they need help.
Speaker B:And like you said, part of that is belief and part of that is finding an understanding.
Speaker B:And again, that kind of brings us back to this point, what we're talking before about instructors.
Speaker B:And do instructors need to move on?
Speaker B:Because like I said, there were other instructors that said she wouldn't pass.
Speaker B:Well, they've not found that bond.
Speaker B:They've not found that.
Speaker B:They've not found what she needed.
Speaker B:That could be because they're simply not the right fit.
Speaker B:Or it could because they're not trying.
Speaker B:I mean, we'll see a lot on Facebook groups and social media and talking at test centers and whatnot.
Speaker B:These instructors that say, oh, I just, you know, swear at my students, I tell them I do this, I just put my foot down and make them do this.
Speaker B:And a lot of the time that might work because that works for that student.
Speaker B:And then they put the blinkers down.
Speaker B:And on the other Students that can't handle that way rather than doing what you did and open up and embracing them and.
Speaker B:And do you think as an industry we need to do more of that?
Speaker A:Yes, yeah, we've got to, we've got to be able to turn our hand, so to speak to everybody and help anybody.
Speaker A:And if you're lacking in a certain area, go and find that.
Speaker A:Go and find that.
Speaker A:Where to get that development from.
Speaker A:So for example, you're lacking teaching people with Asperger's, let's say that's on the spectrum.
Speaker A:We'll go and do an understanding Asperger's course or something like that.
Speaker A:And they run them at colleges.
Speaker A:One of my instructors did one from our local college on an evening.
Speaker A:Something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's not driving related, but it gives you that little bit of understanding that might just help you rather than turning around and saying, sorry, you're never going to pass your test to.
Speaker A:Actually, I've got a little bit of understanding now.
Speaker A:And if you've got a little bit of understanding then you've got a little bit common ground.
Speaker A:And that common ground is what they will feed off.
Speaker A:And that's, that's what I did with, with this, with this young lass.
Speaker A:We had that, we had that common ground up.
Speaker A:Mental health common ground.
Speaker A:And I used it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I like it.
Speaker B:You made a connection and you were able to work together.
Speaker B:And she's now gone and passed after.
Speaker B:A number of people have told her she wouldn't a love those stories.
Speaker B:I find them inspiring.
Speaker B:But again, coming back to our industry, there is that almost a closed door mentality.
Speaker B:You know, if you don't do it my way or if you don't do it the way we've done it for 30 years, then you're doing it wrong.
Speaker B:You know, why do we need to change this stuff?
Speaker B:And as I said at the beginning, it's a big reason of why I wanted to speak to you today.
Speaker B:Because you've done something different with this podcast that is it the driving instructor development podcast.
Speaker B:You've done something different there, Something from the norm.
Speaker B:Yes, there has been other podcasts out there.
Speaker B:There's one by the ADI njc, but that's very, very different to yours.
Speaker B:And looking online, there's other little podcasts that people start for a few weeks, then stop.
Speaker B:But you've put time and effort into yours.
Speaker B:And I say you've got 15, 16 episodes in bag ready to go out.
Speaker B:And so when you did this different thing, when you stepped away from the norm and I'm sure there's other areas you've done it as well.
Speaker B:Was that massively coming out of our comfort zone?
Speaker B:Was we nervous doing it?
Speaker B:Was there anxiety around that or did that not phase you all?
Speaker A:No, it phased me.
Speaker A:When you think about my past and what I've done, I've been put in challenging situations all my life.
Speaker A:Not just the kinetic war fighting, challenging situations, but other situations when you have to brief a general on something, or even just a brigadier or somebody like that, you know, then it's, it's quite challenging.
Speaker A:So to sit and interview somebody is, you know, is second nature really.
Speaker A:And I've been doing zoom sessions for a year now anyway, so I'm used to sitting here at the computer looking at my camera with a microphone stuffed in my face sort of thing.
Speaker A:And I've had that as well throughout my army career when, when I've had certain news channels coming to me and wanting to interview me for certain things.
Speaker A:Afghan was the job I was doing there.
Speaker A:I was always getting either the radio or the news coming out to interview me.
Speaker A:So I'm sort of used to that.
Speaker A:So to come and do this and step out the comfort zone and away from the norm, so to speak, then, yeah, it was just something else.
Speaker A:And, you know, that's, that's what I've sort of done.
Speaker A:You know, I did, I did the BTEC level 3, BTEC level 4 with tri coaching years ago.
Speaker A:Yeah, and that's, that's stepping away from the comfort zone because it's, it's going from the traditional way of teaching somebody to drive to looking at coaching and developing that and developing yourself.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll often do something new, do something different.
Speaker A:And I've done that throughout both careers in the army and in this.
Speaker A:And it's just something that, Yeah, I don't, I don't really get phased by things like that.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm, I'm actually doing.
Speaker A:I'm actually on Tick Tock now as well.
Speaker A:I've just started doing that and it's like, yeah, I'm not doing stupid dances or anything like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker A:But even that didn't phase me.
Speaker A:You know, even when my, when my lad is 23 now, he turned around the other day and he's taking the mick out of me because his, his mates have seen it.
Speaker A:And so what, you know, where a lot of people go home, right.
Speaker A:I'm not doing it anymore.
Speaker A:Then I'm like, yeah, so what?
Speaker A:It's business.
Speaker A:It's, you know, it's Marketing.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I step out of that all the time and try.
Speaker A:Try different things.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker B:I think it's probably been the past 18 months where I've been doing that.
Speaker B:Previous to that, I was very, very reluctant to go out of my comfort zone to do anything away from the norm.
Speaker B:And a large part of that for me and speaking to others, I know this applies to a lot of people as well.
Speaker B:It's that fear of you put something out there, then you hit with that wall of why are you doing that?
Speaker B:That's just stupid.
Speaker B:That's pointless.
Speaker B:We instruct, we don't coach, whatever it might be.
Speaker B:So I suppose putting you on the spot, a.
Speaker B:What advice would you give to someone in that maybe wanted to release a podcast of their own or whatever they wanted to do but was scared because of that?
Speaker B:What advice would you give to someone in that situation?
Speaker A:Do it.
Speaker A:Just do it.
Speaker A:The thing is, we as human beings are scared of failure.
Speaker A:If you don't try something, you've already failed, how do you know it's not going to work if you don't try it?
Speaker A:You know, you try it and if it, if it's not right, you adapt it.
Speaker A:There's a great thing and you'll see it on adverts on the telly and the radio for the army and you saying, fail, learn, win.
Speaker A:And I use that, I use it all the time now.
Speaker A:I, at the moment, during lockdown, I'm working on a Kobe testing team and we have to erect these canopies by the van and.
Speaker A:Etc, etc, and I'm the only one there with any sort of construction brain, shall we say, from what I've done in the army.
Speaker A:So the boss of the team has put me in charge of building that and I just, I just said to them all, you know, fail, learn, win.
Speaker A:If it doesn't work, learn how to do it and you'll win next time.
Speaker A:And it's the same, you know, it's the same.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:If somebody wants to do a podcast, then get out there, try it, speak to people.
Speaker A:Speak to people that's done it.
Speaker A:There is, there's plenty of podcasts out there on.
Speaker A:On running your own podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So to get out.
Speaker A:Yes, to get out there and try it.
Speaker A:Because without trying things, then you've already failed.
Speaker B:I think that's good advice and I'm just going to tag my own little bit on as well.
Speaker B:And the thing I would say, because I get asked this as well, is don't try and get it perfect.
Speaker B:Straight away, you know, there's an author I read and listen to, Rob Moore, and his big thing is start now, get perfect letter.
Speaker B:Just do it.
Speaker B:And like you said, you get the feedback, you learn from it, you go again.
Speaker B:And it's that.
Speaker B:That cycle.
Speaker A:Yep, definitely.
Speaker A:I. I did that with the Zooms this time last year.
Speaker A:Started off, in fact, before, before the Zooms, I was doing videos.
Speaker A:Eighteen months ago, I started doing videos for my learners and the first couple were a bit shaky.
Speaker A:Then they got better and better and better and better, you know, and one thing I was finding was that I would do 10, 15 takes just to get one video perfect.
Speaker A:Now I'll sit in front of the camera and if it's not right, that's all right.
Speaker B:You'll go.
Speaker A:It doesn't have to be word perfect.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And when these dogs just come in, when the dog comes in and he gets up and his head's here, it's still going out because people, People relate to it.
Speaker A:And actually a dog.
Speaker A:Dog's head in the thing will actually get you more likes, more views, more, you know, more people chatting about it because it's, you know, they love dogs.
Speaker A:So generally, he's locked out, but when he does come in, he's.
Speaker A:He'll climb up on me and.
Speaker A:And they still go out.
Speaker A:I don't edit it out.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because I do a live on Facebook for my learners every Monday night.
Speaker B:I usually get, like, somewhere between five and 15 of them tuning in.
Speaker B:These are about 30, 45 minutes long.
Speaker B:They prefer the version I released the next day, which set it down in 60 seconds of me just ballsing up.
Speaker B:They think that's brilliant.
Speaker B:And me saying 15 times, forgetting what we're saying, Ed butting, camera, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:They prefer that to the actual useful stuff.
Speaker B:I'm saying it's weird.
Speaker B:All right, so a couple of questions to wrap up on regarding our industry, obviously the driver trade industry.
Speaker B:What changes would you like to see in our industry over the next five to ten years if you could click your fingers and make those changes occur?
Speaker A:Good question.
Speaker A:One of the things is the way that PDIs train at the moment.
Speaker A:The theory, yes, they need to learn the theory, but the way the theory is at the moment.
Speaker A:And this is just.
Speaker A:This isn't just for PDIs, actually, this is for learners as well, is.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:A lot of it is done by rote.
Speaker A:Read this question, read the answer, read the question, read the answer.
Speaker A:And that's how a lot of them are learning, but it doesn't help because they're not getting.
Speaker A:They're not getting the knowledge behind that question.
Speaker A:So to me, all these apps that are out there that have got question answer questions, a question answer, they need to go because they are encouraging or they are the source of rote learning.
Speaker A:I don't know how, how we get around it, but that's one thing I would look at doing, of getting.
Speaker A:Getting rid of.
Speaker A:Still having the theory.
Speaker A:Yeah, but in a different capacity, so that we can negate that rote learning and do it some other way.
Speaker B:You've actually sort of gone on to my.
Speaker B:My pet peeve there as well.
Speaker B:Like you said, it's.
Speaker B:You're not learning the theory.
Speaker B:You memorize in a series of words.
Speaker B:There's a podcast out there at a minute called the five Minute Theory.
Speaker B:I wonder who could run that podcast.
Speaker B:That's why that was created, to actually explain the questions.
Speaker B:And, you know, the focus on that was to talk about generally the questions that people struggle with.
Speaker B:And, you know, we're in the.
Speaker B:I'm sure you are, but there's some learner groups that you'll go in on Facebook and someone will ask a question for the theory and they'll say, what's the answer to this?
Speaker B:And you'll get 50 people commenting, c option C, you don't learn all.
Speaker B:There's nothing learned there.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I would completely agree with that.
Speaker B:And I think that as for what we can do about it, I think the only thing that I can think at the minute, unless some sort of legislation changes, is as instructors, we actually can't force it, but we can just promote as much as we possibly can and talk about it more.
Speaker B:And I used to be guilty of saying, oh, get this up.
Speaker B:Practice on the app.
Speaker B:I used to be guilty of that.
Speaker B:Yeah, we stop that, we shut that down and we don't.
Speaker B:Yes, the apps have uses.
Speaker B:You can practice the test, so you can practice outside of it, but actually promote stuff.
Speaker B:And push using the highway code and push using.
Speaker B:I'm not plugging this because it's mine.
Speaker B:I don't know any of us at the minute.
Speaker B:But promote a podcast on it, promote a course on it, promote training on it, train yourself on it.
Speaker B:I think as instructors, that's something we could do.
Speaker B:So I think it's a brilliant point you made there.
Speaker B:And then the last question that I would ask, and I suppose you could almost say you've answered this already, but if you was to give one piece of advice, just one tip, one piece of Advice to any, any driving instructor or PDI at the moment, what tip or piece of advice would you give them?
Speaker A:Look at self development.
Speaker A:So try and develop yourself because if you can develop yourself, you'll better yourself and then you'll better the quality that you're giving to your learners as well.
Speaker A:So look at your strengths and weaknesses and find out where you can go to improve those weaknesses.
Speaker A:So then those weaknesses become your strengths.
Speaker A:And if that means going to another instructor to develop it and paying them, do it.
Speaker A:Yeah, every.
Speaker A:Every course I've done I've gained value from.
Speaker A:And most courses I've done I've ended up putting my prices up after.
Speaker B:Like a man after my own heart.
Speaker B:Well, I appreciate you joining us today, Mick.
Speaker B:Before I let you disappear, is there anything you want to promote?
Speaker B:Anything you want to.
Speaker B:Where can people find you?
Speaker A:You can find the DID podcast development podcast by searching the DID podcast on all major platforms or you can find us at www.pod.
Speaker D:We have got a website as well for the expert instructor training.
Speaker D:That's at expert instructor training.co.uk where there's a load of videos as well that you can watch on various subjects there which will hopefully help people.
Speaker D:It is a paid subscription but there is 60 days free to start with.
Speaker D:Also, if you're a PDI or a newly qualified ADI that hasn't yet sat a standards check, you can join us at train to be a driving instructor on Facebook.
Speaker D:Just sending.
Speaker D:Send the invite to join the group.
Speaker D:I will get it.
Speaker D:You'll get a message off me just to ask whether you are a PDI or new qualified and as long as you are then you'll be accepted in.
Speaker D:Yeah, other than that I'm all over Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn.
Speaker D:What's the other one?
Speaker D:What's the one I've just started?
Speaker B:TikTok.
Speaker D:TikTok, yeah, that as well, yeah.
Speaker D:Brilliant Instagram.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I'll put links for your stuff in the show notes as well so people can always go in there and go directly to you.
Speaker B:But I genuinely appreciate you giving us your time.
Speaker B:Say I thoroughly enjoyed talking to.
Speaker B:It's been.
Speaker B:Been a pleasure.
Speaker B:It's been really interesting so I appreciate.
Speaker B:I'm sure other people will think so as well.
Speaker A:No problems.
Speaker D:Cheers.
Speaker B:Good stuff.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker B:No problem.
Speaker C:So thanks man.
Speaker C:Ignolza.
Speaker C:A great conversation as always.
Speaker C:It was great hearing experience and the big one for me is somewhat that I speak about a lot as well in how he used his experience in other situations in other trades if you like.
Speaker C:And how he uses that in his current trade.
Speaker C:You know, the big one he spoke about was discipline.
Speaker C:And I think it's something we can all do.
Speaker C:I think we're too easy to dismiss other areas of life.
Speaker C:And look at our industry has just been like, this is unique.
Speaker C:And only these certain things happen where.
Speaker B:We can actually take a step back.
Speaker C:And we can take from other industries, from other trades, from other people and apply them into ours.
Speaker C:That's not just a driving instructor thing.
Speaker C:That's probably everything every industry can take from everywhere and apply to your own.
Speaker C:So I did find that really interesting.
Speaker C:And again, thanks to Mick there.
Speaker C:Now this week we have given the DITC the week off.
Speaker C:That is a brilliant bonus episode through the week.
Speaker C:So if you haven't heard that already, go back and check that out.
Speaker C:All about their interview with NAS or the Q and A, I should say, with nasp.
Speaker C:And it's just a verbal transcribe, if.
Speaker B:You like, of that interview.
Speaker C:It's great podcast, some great history on NASP as well.
Speaker C:So go and check that out.
Speaker C:That was a back episode that was released on Tuesday this week.
Speaker C:So yeah, a big thank you to Mick Knowles there and hope you all enjoyed this episode.
Speaker B:So thank you for listening today.
Speaker B:If you enjoyed this this podcast, make sure you click subscribe wherever you're listening so that the next one will drop straight into your podcast feed.
Speaker B:If you want to get in touch with us, show head over@tcdrive.co.uk you can get in touch with me by any method over there.
Speaker B:And remember, let's just keep raising standards and stay safe.
