Marketing for driving instructors - Amanda Leek
In this episode we get some brilliant words of wisdom for marketing expert Amanda Leek. We discuss the importance of building relationships and trust. We talk about how what we say online can affect the type of person that inquires with us. We also speak about the importance of reviews.
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Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome and thank you for joining us on the Instructor podcast where every week we're joined by experts and innovators, leaders and game changers so we can hold a mirror up at the instructor industry and see where we can improve and raise our standards.
Speaker B:So if you're ready, we'll make a start.
Speaker B:Thank you for joining us on episode two of the Instructor, where we shine light on our industry to see where we can improve.
Speaker B:And in this episode, we're going to be talking to Amanda Leake discussing all things marketing.
Speaker B:So if you enjoy these episodes, make sure you click the subscribe button so it goes into your feed every time you get a new episode released.
Speaker B:But for now, let's crack on with the show.
Speaker B:We are joined today by the wonderful Amanda Leake.
Speaker B:Good afternoon, Amanda.
Speaker B:How are you today?
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker A:I'm very good, thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah, excited to be here.
Speaker B:Good stuff.
Speaker B:It's great to have you here.
Speaker B:So, first of all, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, about your background and about what you're doing now?
Speaker A:Well, right now I do content marketing, most online social media, blogs, and also press PR for mostly smaller and quirkier and unusual companies, or at least unusual angles.
Speaker A:So kind of see newsworthy stories and everything.
Speaker A:And I have a membership for.
Speaker A:Well, it started as just for social media help, but it's grown a bit.
Speaker A:So incorporate a bit of press stuff for smaller businesses that can't afford, you know, a big agency.
Speaker A:So I can kind of help everyone help each other.
Speaker A:And that's changing a little bit, which, you know, I can, I can tell you a little bit more later or, you know, give you links to find out more.
Speaker A:But yeah, that's what I'm doing now.
Speaker A:But my background was in journalism and I'm a qualified journalist.
Speaker A:So that's how it's overlapped a lot with content writing and marketing.
Speaker A:And now as a pr, I know exactly what, you know, journalists want.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's my, that's my good career story.
Speaker A:Plenty of mistakes along the way.
Speaker A:Don't worry.
Speaker B:I mean, I've known you for a little while now and I have to be honest, never realized you actually were a journalist.
Speaker B:I always got the impression it was more of an interest than an actual career.
Speaker B:What was your, I don't know what the term is.
Speaker B:Specialty.
Speaker B:Was there a.
Speaker B:Was there a specialty?
Speaker B:Was it more broad or.
Speaker A:Yeah, like NCTJ qualification, which kind of starts mostly in local news.
Speaker A:And so from there, the traditional route of local news.
Speaker A:And so from there I've done different Things we've done finance and technology and business topics areas.
Speaker A:Beats, as they say.
Speaker A:But I've also done arts and culture and obviously I have an interest in more artistic and literary things.
Speaker A:So, yeah, a bit of a.
Speaker A:Bit of a mixture.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:So, yeah, there's quite a broad range with the local stuff.
Speaker B:Is that the old cat up the tree stuff?
Speaker B:Is it all the really mundane.
Speaker B:So, as you say, at the end of luck, north and stuff like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, it can be.
Speaker A:It can be from.
Speaker A:From.
Speaker A:From.
Speaker A:Well, from crime.
Speaker A:We actually.
Speaker A:I did sort of tracking across a Google map, sort of the crime each week for a local paper.
Speaker A:So that was quite interesting.
Speaker A:From that to road accidents, which probably contributed to me not being in journalism anymore.
Speaker A:Yeah, local.
Speaker A:Local news can be quite in your face, but then on the other hand, it can be quite random and silly and fluffy and so obviously my favourites were finding stories from the RSPCA or about pets and stuff.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's good training to start in local.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For anyone that doesn't know Amanda, there's definitely an animal theme to everything you do, right through to your memberships.
Speaker B:You've got your paid one, which is pounce and then I think there's a free one, which is.
Speaker B:Is it parsed?
Speaker B:A pounce?
Speaker A:Is it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So Facebook group, pause the pounce.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:No, that's cool.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's one of the biggest thing.
Speaker B:I suppose you've kind of.
Speaker B:We've got you in stockpile today, which is the.
Speaker B:The marketing side of it.
Speaker B:So we all background there.
Speaker B:That's going to be pretty cool.
Speaker B:I'm going to jump in though, straight away with something that perked my attention slightly and I'm going to ask your opinion on it, as a former journalist and someone that's still involved in that thing.
Speaker B:Now, you mentioned road traffic accidents.
Speaker B:Technically, I think they're now called road traffic collisions to reduce the idea of it being an accident.
Speaker B:One thing I've noticed recently is that these aren't massively reported, they're not massively pushed out there, they're almost not hidden.
Speaker B:But it doesn't appear to be news.
Speaker B:I mean, on average, not at the minute because of lockdown, obviously, but prior to lockdown, on average, five people die every day in England in the uk, which is quite a significant number of people died due to a road traffic accident.
Speaker B:So just to get straight into the serious stuff, why do you think or do you have an opinion as to why that's not at the forefront?
Speaker B:If that many people are dying on A daily basis.
Speaker A:That is, that is a good question.
Speaker A:So one of the most.
Speaker A:I just, I just realized, I mentioned that that was quite a turning point for maybe.
Speaker A:Well, I suppose a little bit traumatized when I went out to cover a road accident and I watched the CCTV and it was quite drastic and it was fatal and it was a lorry versus a motorbike and there was lots of witnesses.
Speaker A:So I suppose that was obvious for like a story and to be covered and maybe it's just.
Speaker A:Well, I suppose there's so many CCTVs around, you know, apparently, you know, 90 something percent of the world is covered with CCTV or at least in the uk.
Speaker A:So I don't think that's an issue, but maybe it's an issue of not having witnesses.
Speaker A:But yeah, I mean that's just something I can think of just because the story I covered was quite in the middle of a busy street and so that was huge news and front page news and yeah, it is interesting.
Speaker A:And even just country roads as well.
Speaker A:I mean you said about my love of animals and, and when I've been on a one day, which, which I can explain why, but went to like a one day sort of refresher driving course, the.
Speaker A:They were talking about, you know, animal fatalities and country roads and stuff.
Speaker A:And then I also worked in an animal rescue center for about a week and pretty much all the injuries came from cars and people speeding and yeah, that's not covered at all.
Speaker A:Like no one cares to write about the stories of the animals, of how many foxes are hit by cars.
Speaker A:I suppose.
Speaker A:Yeah, so that is interesting, I guess.
Speaker A:I don't know why, but maybe it's not as exciting as, as crime or you know, an obvious intent.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And, and yeah, and they, I suppose they do call it accidents but then when you get to it, most of the accidents have some sort of rule breaking behind them.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, especially speeding.
Speaker A:So it's interesting.
Speaker A:Or drunk driving.
Speaker A:Yeah, those were the big ones.
Speaker B:I think you, you made a point there that, that I think is relevant and again, I'm, I have no journalistic background at all.
Speaker B:This is just my take as a, as a layman, which is.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:It's almost not news anymore because it's that frequent.
Speaker B:Become desensitized to it.
Speaker B:And I just compare it to another thing that's going at the minute.
Speaker B:And I don't want this to be a conversation about COVID at all.
Speaker B:But you know, if you look at the first wave, the first lockdown, how many people are dying and how that was reported and how people handling that and reacting to that.
Speaker B:And then you look at the second wave where, you know, similar and then higher numbers and it was almost a shrug of the shoulders by people.
Speaker B:We'd gotten used to it by then.
Speaker B:So my, my guess would be that.
Speaker B:I think you said it's not exciting, it's not newsworthy, it's not exciting because it happens all the time.
Speaker B:So whatever.
Speaker B:But, but yeah, just where you mentioned that, I thought that was quite an interesting point.
Speaker B:So, you know, thank you for answering that one.
Speaker A:And I guess we're getting into sensational as well because, you know, the mundane but important things are not reported.
Speaker A:But if there's something really gory or unusual or horrific, that's always front page news, even though it might not necessarily be.
Speaker A:It might just be a random fluke or it might be that it's.
Speaker A:Or it's not news, but it's, it's sort of sensationalized.
Speaker A:Yeah, but I guess, you know, people are just driving every day, so it's like, oh, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker A:Nothing will put us off anyway, that's it.
Speaker B:I mean, you see that many people on the road every day that it's almost expected that that's going to happen.
Speaker B:Which that's probably not a good thing anyway.
Speaker B:Taking a step back just slightly from the serious stuff, one of the questions that I like to ask people, especially the sort of the, the guys that aren't in the industry, if you like, is about your driving skill.
Speaker B:I know you can drive, so just cast your Mac back, Cast your Mac, cast your mind back to your driving test and just tell me a little bit about how you found learning to drive and how you found the test and how you dealt with that.
Speaker A:So it's been quite a few twists and turns actually.
Speaker A:So when my family moved to New Zealand and I went to university there from London, which is where I'm from, and then moved back.
Speaker A:So just as I was in sixth form here, I started some lessons but wasn't quite ready for the test and family moved to New Zealand.
Speaker A:So at 17, the instructor didn't seem, I suppose I could say he's not good, but like there's all sorts of types of not good.
Speaker A:But he just seemed to be wanting to make jokes or, you know, get on with me rather than making me test ready, especially when there was a bit of time in it too because I didn't know how long I would have.
Speaker A:And then when I got to New Zealand, I was lucky and I Found an instructor that, that I got on great with and I had an office job.
Speaker A:So driving back and forth in rush hour taught me all sorts of, of varied things and like driving quite a long way from, you know, and out in the country into the city and stuff.
Speaker B:And that was in New Zealand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean the, the great thing about New Zealand is that three point turn is very easy because the roads are really wide and there's hardly ever car, any cars.
Speaker A:So talking about that, I passed my test in New Zealand.
Speaker A:So when I came back here and went straight back to London, I was terrified.
Speaker A:I like, yeah, I mean you don't need to drive in London.
Speaker A:So I didn't for about nine years.
Speaker A:But yeah, I just thought I won't be able to drive in the UK because it is quite different.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So in New Zealand the test was, the test was.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, I had a lot of lessons before and I was quite nervous and also then we had a lot of commuting drives.
Speaker A:So by the time I took the test I felt pretty comfortable and I did pass it first time, which was awesome.
Speaker A:But obviously I did what everyone does, came home to mum and I was like, no, I failed.
Speaker A:And she was like, oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:I'm like, I just killed it, I passed it.
Speaker A:So yeah, so I mean, potentially it's a little bit easier in a lot of ways in New Zealand.
Speaker A:So, you know, maybe that's why I passed first time, because my friends, my peers at the time were talking about, you know, third, fourth times of not passing it in the uk and yeah, it seems harder and harder each year as well.
Speaker A:But I don't know what if you agree with that or.
Speaker B:There'S a whole host of reasons that I'll save for another podcast for that one, but down to poor tuition, down to bad attitude of overall choosers, down to the attitude of learners picking up bad attitude from their parents.
Speaker B:And I think a large part of it is complacency and a lack of not taking it seriously.
Speaker B:It's, it's odd, I think that because you see everyone else driving, you know, I walked into my street, I'm going to see cars.
Speaker B:Because you see everyone else driving, you, I think in back your head either assume it's easy or you think that you should be able to do it and then put that pressure on yourself.
Speaker B:Whereas a job such as journalism, you don't see everyone doing that.
Speaker B:So you look at that and think, oh, I bet that's really hard.
Speaker B:I'm sure it is.
Speaker B:But I mean that's the thought process.
Speaker B:I bet that's really hard.
Speaker B:I'd have to train for years do that just to get up to a skill level.
Speaker B:But look at all these people driving.
Speaker B:I won't need to train for that.
Speaker B:That must be easy.
Speaker B:So I do think there's a large part of that, but I think we'll save that full conversation for another day.
Speaker B:But that does actually tie me in slightly to the next question I was going to ask you and I asked all of my guests this, that are, that aren't part of our industry and just give me as honest an answer as you can with this because I'm intrigued to know do you have and if so, what is your opinion on the driver instructor industry?
Speaker A:Well, it's hard to find or assess good instructors and then hard to trust them.
Speaker A:And I especially as a woman as well, and especially as a woman with any experience perhaps that might be adverse to being alone with a man in a car, a stranger.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's really, it's quite a jump to then trust someone.
Speaker A:And also.
Speaker A:Yeah, as in you can't trust someone, you can't really assess them until you are having a couple of lessons with them and then realizing they're rubbish or actually feeling comfortable.
Speaker A:And I think that puts off a lot of adults as well or women from even taking lessons or taking refreshers.
Speaker A:So yeah, to finish my sort of driving story as well, that when I came back to London I didn't drive and was scared to.
Speaker A:But then we moved out of London so I'm kind of nearer to Oxford.
Speaker A:And then I was looking for an instructor then because I hadn't actually been behind the wheel for about nine years.
Speaker A:But when I found people just through googling whatever I like, I kind of called people that either weren't available for like months or, and I just wanted one or two lessons to like remind myself because I knew I could drive competently, you know, years ago or there was one person that was very over familiar and was then texting me and then I was saying, oh, I'm really nervous about driving but I have driven before.
Speaker A:And he was like, oh, you know, I'll bring you out of your shell and whatever.
Speaker A:And it was just like, it was just a bit creepy.
Speaker A:So I suppose even before you step foot in a car it's, it's, it's sometimes quite a brave leap to even look for an instructor and trust someone as an adult in particular.
Speaker A:And I suppose when you're as a teenager, parents sort of do that Assessment for you.
Speaker A:So yeah, I didn't think of that I guess when I was 17.
Speaker A:So yeah, that's what I think right now.
Speaker B:I think it's a really interesting point you raised because that's obviously perspective of a female.
Speaker B:I'm not, I'm a male.
Speaker B:And it was something that I never even considered when I first became an instructor.
Speaker B:I'd just go, I'd pick up whoever it was and provide the lesson.
Speaker B:And it must have been after about a year when I was doing it, someone actually took a moment to thank me for putting them at ease.
Speaker B:It was a young lady.
Speaker B:She took a moment to thank me for putting her at ease and said that she'd got mixed up.
Speaker B:She was hoping to have an instructor that was female.
Speaker B:But when she'd seen marks, I worked for a national school time, see my name of Terry and assume that was female.
Speaker B:So went with that instructor.
Speaker B:So she was quite nervous.
Speaker B:That really made me think about that.
Speaker B:Like you've just said, a young girl being picked up by a block, driven somewhere for maybe don't even know where they are.
Speaker B:Maybe a quiet area somewhere for your first driving lesson, possibly even in the dark.
Speaker B:And being a naive fellow that I am, never even registered me.
Speaker B:And it was after that point that I did start just to tweak the way I was a little bit around that.
Speaker B:And I suppose that what you're talking about actually ties into the, the marketing side a little bit because my niche, if you like, the people that come to me generally tend to be women and they generally tend to be around the 25 to 30 age.
Speaker B:And that's nothing I've done.
Speaker B:No, I don't go out on Facebook and advertise to women between 30, 25 and 30.
Speaker B:I don't go on on Twitter and say if you're 27 and female, come to me.
Speaker B:You know, I don't explicitly do that but you know, when you look at my passes, when you look at my Facebook group and when, even when you look at my other podcast, A five minute Theory, it breaks down the, the genders of people.
Speaker B:It's 65 female that listen.
Speaker B:So why could you offer an opinion as to why that might be that I've got this certain clientele coming to me.
Speaker A:Well, it's obviously because you're such a ladies man.
Speaker B:There's a few people that would argue with that.
Speaker A:Well, we met through sort of a geeky like minded interest, Facebook group coaching for gigs, which is great.
Speaker A:And so from that I know you to be, you know, a personable and calm and trustworthy person.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So then before I would.
Speaker A:If I needed an instructor before I would even Google strangers, then there's kind of that in the first place.
Speaker A:And I guess the thing about nice geeky blokes is that, you know, they're not threatening and they're obviously not interested in that.
Speaker A:So perhaps that's why.
Speaker A:And also I had a look at your website and you have a lot of reviews, which is great.
Speaker A:And that's the first thing people look at.
Speaker A:And something that driving instructors tend to not pay enough attention to, which I can talk about.
Speaker A:But, yeah, all your.
Speaker A:The more reviews you have, especially from women, it's then going to then reinforce that a lot of women just feel comfortable with you.
Speaker A:So I would say that's why.
Speaker A:But, yeah, as a person, you're just, you know, you're not threatening and even just have.
Speaker A:Being a stranger and not knowing someone has a level of like, okay, I'm not sure whether it's a threat or not.
Speaker A:Ask guys.
Speaker A:Yeah, so to be on Facebook and be so visible as well, and we know you, we know your dog, and we know you know that you chat to your students and have jokes with them.
Speaker A:That's so completely different to just, you know, yeah, that's.
Speaker A:That's what makes it way more trustworthy.
Speaker B:So I've almost inadvertently created a niche market for myself just by being myself online.
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:And, yeah, well, there's a few things to say about that.
Speaker A:But, yeah, the first thing I would say when I'm looking to Google an instructor is that there's a complete lack of trust.
Speaker A:Whereas, yeah, with you, especially on Facebook or any other platform that's so visible and personal and visual, it's like, okay, I know what you look like.
Speaker A:I know what your interests are.
Speaker A:I know that, like, you know, the things you talk about, that alone sort of breaks the barrier.
Speaker A:Like, okay, yeah, what is he after?
Speaker B:When you, like you mentioned there, there's a lack of trust.
Speaker B:Is that because someone comes across as untrustworthy or simply because there hasn't been a trust formed yet?
Speaker A:I think not having a trust formed yet is basically it.
Speaker A:Which is.
Speaker A:Which goes back to just not.
Speaker A:If driving instructors are not doing any marketing at all, especially online, then you don't even have that chance to form an opinion?
Speaker A:Yeah, so that's just the absence of it.
Speaker A:And so I know driving instructors aren't online much, and if I search on Facebook, I didn't really find much that was advertised, even just pages that would come up.
Speaker A:I don't mean Facebook advertising.
Speaker A:And then when I Google, all that comes up really is, you know, the AA or like the red and the main schools.
Speaker A:But to find an independent driving instructor, it's quite hard.
Speaker A:And so when you do, there's not much information about them.
Speaker B:It's an interesting point.
Speaker B:Again, you make that because, again, speaking from within the industry, there's.
Speaker B:There's a quite a bit of resistance to marketing from a large proportion of the industry.
Speaker B:And that's kind of.
Speaker B:It's why I'm doing this podcast.
Speaker B:One of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast is to hold a mirror up to our industry and let them look and see where we can improve, see where we can develop.
Speaker B:And I do believe that marketing is one area.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people, a lot of instructors that will say they live off referrals.
Speaker B:Why should I bother marketing if I just get referrals?
Speaker B:My opinion on that is quite simply that you are taking a bit of a risk there.
Speaker B:What happens when they run out?
Speaker B:Now, referrals are brilliant.
Speaker B:I get referrals.
Speaker B:That's where I get some of my customers from.
Speaker B:I mean, somebody's the highest form of praise.
Speaker B:If someone refers you in a way, it's almost marketing in itself.
Speaker B:But if you're not doing anything else beyond that, I do feel like you're running a bit of a risk.
Speaker B:What would your thoughts on that be?
Speaker A:So referrals are obviously brilliant and it's huge when someone refers you.
Speaker A:And in fact, that's the biggest currency that you can have.
Speaker A:But it can be used so much better than just relying on word of mouth or the fact that, I mean, even just relying on the fact that someone will remember you.
Speaker A:Because if my friend comes to me and says they're looking for an instructor, I might in that moment be so preoccupied, I forget that, oh, my friends and instructors and like you, if you just put your referrals, your reviews, ask people to write them or video or whatever they want in their words on your website, that alone is going to help help draw people to you.
Speaker A:But it is kind of like referral marketing, but to strangers.
Speaker A:Because the first thing people will do is, is read your reviews.
Speaker A:In fact, I asked my mum yesterday how she decided what instructors to look for when I was 17.
Speaker A:And she was like, oh, you know, I just looked at reviews.
Speaker A:It was all I did.
Speaker A:And people who were who said about, you know, pass rates and how long.
Speaker A:But mostly it was just reviews of how comfortable they felt because as a parent, she was thinking, okay, yeah, like, you know, my 17 year old is out with a stranger, so yeah, there's that too.
Speaker A:But in terms of from a marketing perspective as well, I mean I've been trained in HubSpot, which is a big marketing school, school of thought academy type thing.
Speaker A:And they say more and more, especially since content marketing, digital marketing exists with Google and social media, it's probably around 90%, but I can find the statistic for you and the links for it.
Speaker A:But the people deciding to buy anything in any industry is they want to go away and research themselves before they even speak to a salesperson or decide to buy the thing.
Speaker A:So just to rely on referrals misses out all of that, right?
Speaker A:Because no one can actually research you and make up their mind about you first.
Speaker A:And it's like what you said, like I know you as a person so I can make up my mind now whether I would want to buy from you.
Speaker A:But if you weren't online at all, then I've just missed like all of that, which, and then it's just easy for you to be yourself.
Speaker A:But actually that's a whole relationship you've already built without even meeting them first.
Speaker A:And it's the phrase in marketing that we often use which is to know like and trust.
Speaker A:And that's what you're building by building anything online.
Speaker A:And it's also just more comfortable because when you speak to a salesperson in any company, you feel like you're being sold to and you feel like the pressure and you want to say no.
Speaker A:But now it's more in the customer's control to read and research and figure out everything and then they only come to you when they want to buy.
Speaker A:So in terms of the whole marketing industry across everything that's happening.
Speaker A:And so people are inevitably going to think the same about driving instructors and especially as teachers too, and they're coaching or teaching industry, teaching industries, you kind of want to know the person because it does, it does matter a lot between the relationship between the learner and the instructor, as I'm sure you will agree is probably the main thing about whether or not you'll get on and then whether or not you'll feel comfortable and whether or not you'll learn in the first place.
Speaker A:So that is all going to be helped if you actually have stuff online to show in the first place because you'll be like, okay, I annual reviews.
Speaker A:But the other thing about reviews is that it relies on, I mean the first obvious thing is that it just relies on the fact that people have friends and I know that sounds silly and I guess, you know, 17, we typically think of a 17 year old learning to drive and they're in college and they've got lots of friends.
Speaker A:But what about, as you said, you're attracting, you know, people with anxiety and people who are adults.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What about the scared and lone adults that don't have friends and need to drive?
Speaker A:Driving is probably a big barrier to them making friends too.
Speaker A:So that's where they're looking to learn to drive and you're not going to reach them.
Speaker A:And the other thing is maybe people who have moved cities or moved countries, they don't have friends where they are and how are they going to get.
Speaker A:Yeah, but they won't have conversations to get referrals in that city, in that place.
Speaker A:So you're already missing out huge, huge chunks of the population that are actively looking to learn to drive.
Speaker A:So those are the main issues with just relying on referrals.
Speaker B:A lot of information there, a lot of good stuff as well.
Speaker B:I think to knit a little bit of that together and please pull me up on this if it's not right.
Speaker B:But I also get the feeling that with a review.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:With a referral, it's almost like someone's coming to your code.
Speaker B:So if I teach Joe Bloggs and Joe Bloggs tells Jack Bloggs, go say Terry.
Speaker B:He comes to me, we just start working together.
Speaker B:He's no idea how I work and I have no idea what he's like.
Speaker B:Whereas if someone looks me up online and research me and sees my live videos and knows that I make stupid jokes about pterodactyls and terrifying and stuff like that and gets my sense of humor and that, well, they're gonna make a judgment.
Speaker B:Is that person right for me?
Speaker B:So they're actually, even if the customer was coming to you, regardless, they're coming in with their eyes open.
Speaker B:If they've seen you, well, it's just coming from her eyes closed.
Speaker B:They're coming in not knowing what to expect, which is immediately going to make them feel more comfortable in the car when they actually, maybe they've seen you on a video or whatever.
Speaker B:It might be going to feel more confident.
Speaker B:Does that sound right?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I guess you're saying as well, it's like, it's like the difference between so someone's coming to you because they've been recommended, but they don't have a relationship with you individually yet, but online.
Speaker A:The whole point of marketing is to build that relationship so that it's a lot easier to then make the decision to buy.
Speaker A:So then you've kind of made that relationship happen between you and that person rather than just relying on what the friend or referral said.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I also want to touch back on something you were saying about the websites because I think you made a point that you had more to say about those.
Speaker B:My website laid dormant for about a year.
Speaker B:I created it, put some okay stuff on there, they ignored it for a year.
Speaker B:And it's really all the past few weeks where I've gone in and revamped it and beefed it up.
Speaker B:But you were saying that you'd seen some not so good ones and some of the good ones.
Speaker B:What other pointers that you would give us for websites?
Speaker A:Well, I just think it's important.
Speaker A:So I guess more that I found websites were absent.
Speaker A:And even if you just had a website saying this is how to contact me and these are my reviews of people who have passed their tests, that alone is something people don't do and that is what people are actively looking for.
Speaker A:And so the rest of it, yes, it's relationship building, but most people are making a decision, especially when it's an instructor, especially such a one to one relationship based on reviews.
Speaker A:And then people are going to read the reviews and thinking, okay, you know, did you teach women and how did they feel?
Speaker A:Or basically are people like me?
Speaker A:Did they get on with you and did they pass the test with you?
Speaker A:So it's less about reviews saying how great you are, but it's more describing.
Speaker A:The more context you can have in a review, the better as well.
Speaker A:So it's like, okay, like you know, 17 and a woman and whatever or 30 years old and anxious and move to a new town or stuff like that would really help too because then people can identify exactly how, how it might go because it's a similar situation.
Speaker A:But yeah, when I think of looking for an instructor, the first thing people would do is just Google and they Google the will they google the location.
Speaker A:So I was looking at.
Speaker A:So SEO is very important and I don't know how well versed instructors are.
Speaker A:Moz.com might be a good place to start.
Speaker A:And I went on there and just sort of you can type in a keyword which is driving lessons and then it shows you what people search for and obviously far outweighing all other phrases.
Speaker A:And it's pretty simple.
Speaker A:It's driving lessons plus location is all you need to include on your website because that's the main thing people are looking for.
Speaker A:But once they get there, that's when they're going to assess you and whether you're right.
Speaker A:But when I looked on moz.com, the first phrase is was driving lessons near me.
Speaker A:And that tells me that it kind of relies on.
Speaker A:On Google and location for a start.
Speaker A:So you don't have to worry too much about exactly placing all the exact, you know, roads and locations and miles near whatever, where you are.
Speaker A:But you should, on your website, kind of put that and kind of put that on your review page because then it would draw more people to that page in particular.
Speaker A:So, for example, at the top you could put, you know, driving.
Speaker A:So like, these are students who took driving lessons near Birmingham or within, you know, 30 miles away from, you know, where I am.
Speaker A:And that would just draw.
Speaker A:Google would draw, you know, the actual keyword that people are searching for to then click you.
Speaker A:Click on you and get you onto the first page of Google, which improves the chances of people actually discovering you in the first place.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Yes, but if you could also double that up with using that on your review page, then that's exactly what people are going to be clicking on first anyway, because they're going to be.
Speaker A:They're going to care less about you or whatever it is.
Speaker A:Not at first.
Speaker A:They're just going to want to know are you actually competent?
Speaker A:And then they'll want to know whether you're, what, where you're from and what you do and how long you've been, you know, teaching.
Speaker B:Now when you're talking about SEO and putting stuff on your website, again, I'm a very much a novice in this stuff, but I'm assuming that you're not necessarily meaning, like, anything fancy, like links or anything you literally just mean include the words driving instructor, driving lesson leads, or Birmingham, wherever you base, just include those in any of the things that you happen to be talking about.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So I mean, in 10, 20 years ago, it used to be people used to just stuff keywords everywhere and kind of write for the Google, for the machine.
Speaker A:And that doesn't work anymore because not only is Google cleverer, but people are kind of know that that actually happens.
Speaker A:And if you're talking just.
Speaker A:Yeah, so worry less about, you know, algorithms and Google and technical stuff.
Speaker A:They're just talking to a person.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:But just see it from their perspective.
Speaker A:They're going to type in driving lessons near their town.
Speaker A:So you just need to include those words so they actually know they've come to the right place.
Speaker A:And yeah, so there's that.
Speaker A:And then the reviews, if you can Provide more context around it that also helps the words that they'd be searching for.
Speaker A:So someone with, someone with anxiety or someone who's kind of hasn't driven for 10 years, like, like me, may well be searching for that.
Speaker A:Like driving lessons for people that are scared of driving or something.
Speaker A:So yeah, so the more context you have in your review, the more people will land on that.
Speaker A:But yeah, so it's not just about, it's not about repeating driving lessons in every second sentence.
Speaker A:Once or twice on a page is enough.
Speaker A:But just make sure you have it so that Google can read that's a relevant page for people who are searching for that good stuff.
Speaker B:Then we come on to social media, the one of the greatest and worst creations of all time.
Speaker B:So obviously there's a lot of, a lot of different aspects.
Speaker B:Social media platforms, you've got Facebook, your Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker B:My most familiar one is Facebook and I would have to guess that the bulk of instructors would use and on Facebook.
Speaker B:I think the big question I want to ask you around this is the difference between a business page and a personal page.
Speaker B:Should we have.
Speaker B:But I suppose got to have a personal page, but should you have both?
Speaker B:And I suppose as a tag onto that, how should they be used if.
Speaker A:You'Re using both, if you're relying on it to kind of reach new people, then a Facebook business page, if you're just posting is really hard, really difficult to even build up an audience.
Speaker A:And even then it won't reach people.
Speaker A:So Facebook personal profiles are what show up in people's feeds, but also groups, which is a big one.
Speaker A:I'm going to talk about that.
Speaker A:But yeah, the purpose of a Facebook page is to show you a business and then run advertising mainly or that's Facebook's, you know, design for it.
Speaker A:But then a Facebook profile is actually the communication and the relationship building that, that you want.
Speaker A:And if you are going to advertise your own business, not to just spam and say that's what you, that's what you do.
Speaker A:And here book a lesson in every post.
Speaker A:But I would suggest that you use your profile, mixing it up with your own personal things, but to say that you are an instructor.
Speaker A:And the great thing about the great thing about Facebook and the great, the real reason I think all driving instructions should be on Facebook is because Facebook for the average person, especially you know, younger people is that Facebook is all about showing photos and showing milestones.
Speaker A:So when people have a wedding or people buy a house.
Speaker A:The first thing they want to do is, you know, boast about it on Facebook.
Speaker A:And it's exactly the same for buying a car and passing their test and, you know, getting the keys or whatever or.
Speaker A:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:Or asking people's opinions about buying a car and everything.
Speaker A:And that is going to happen for sure, that people will ask opinions about instructors.
Speaker A:And I've seen on Facebook people saying, oh, you know, my instructor did this.
Speaker A:Is this.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:And so it is going to be in the open via your students, if, like, the good and the bad from instructors.
Speaker A:And that's also going to be a main source of referrals on Facebook more than conversations these days.
Speaker A:And probably kids these days may well talk less to their mates and probably communicate on Facebook more anyway.
Speaker A:That makes me sound like a grumpy old woman, but, you know, everyone's saying it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So your Facebook profile.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, so if a student is really happy with you and they can tag you, that's huge and really relatable.
Speaker A:And then you're also showing yourself to be part of their big milestones and their big journeys.
Speaker A:And when they buy their car and they tell their story about how, you know, they were so scared to even get into a car in the first place and they thought they'd never reached that point.
Speaker A:That's a huge story.
Speaker A:And that's what driving structures are all about.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's freedom and independence, and it's so much more than just knowing how to change gears without stalling.
Speaker A:And so for that reason, Facebook and other storytelling platforms is, yeah, you should.
Speaker A:You should be there.
Speaker A:And yes, in terms of Facebook in particular, the profile is what will get you the reach and be more personable and be able to also add friends as well.
Speaker A:Paige can't do that.
Speaker A:But a business page is good, as if you see it as more of like a brochure so someone can go there and see exactly what times you're available, what your prices are, whether it's just you or a team and stuff like that.
Speaker A:But the big thing about Facebook and when I did a little search last night for how people even decide to choose an instructor, is that a lot of people were talking about frustrations, people that run local Facebook groups for their area, frustrations that they can't find good driving instructors.
Speaker A:And so if you were in local Facebook groups, that will probably get you more business, because people just don't know how to recommend or refer within a Facebook group.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Yeah, and it's.
Speaker A:And it's probably the.
Speaker A:It's sort of the flip side of just relying on referrals only finds you, you know, the friends of your students.
Speaker A:But if you're in a local Facebook group, that ripples out beyond Facebook.
Speaker A:Because I could be on Facebook and then hear that someone's, you know, talking about an instructor and saying that it was really good or that they're looking for someone and then someone else recommended it and then I will then talk to someone who's not even on Facebook about that.
Speaker A:But yeah, so local, the local groups, not even business groups, but local groups.
Speaker A:Whether it's even just really niche ones, like, I don't know, the local vegan group or something.
Speaker A:But it's like when it's really based on our location, you will just get questions, people asking questions about, oh, where can I find this in this town?
Speaker B:It's, it's interesting you say that, especially with the, the vegan thing there, because I genuinely have a customer that claims to me because I was vegan.
Speaker B:Now there must be other vegan instructors about.
Speaker B:There must be, but they've gone, I don't know, maybe they're looking at two or three instructors for, well, they're vegan like me.
Speaker B:I'm gonna go to that.
Speaker B:I've got people that come to me because driving me again, I don't advertise these.
Speaker B:I don't go out, look at my Mini.
Speaker B:You know, I'll mention it, but it's not a, a promotional tactic.
Speaker B:But they'll come to it because I drive a Mini.
Speaker B:They might go to someone else because they're teaching an Audi or whatever.
Speaker B:So yes, that's not gonna get you hundreds of thousands of customers, but what it will do, it, it gets me a customer that I enjoy teaching because it's someone that I share a commonality within that vegan thing.
Speaker B:And like, just going back to what you were saying about the groups as well, when you talked about the local groups, I think one of the big ones, I see.
Speaker B:I think they're called the community groups.
Speaker B:No, like for the local area.
Speaker B:And one of my students, I'm going a slight tangent with a little story.
Speaker B:I apologize, but one of my students is brilliant.
Speaker B:She could single handedly generate me work for years because she goes in these groups and when someone asks for an instructor, she'll go in and she'll say, oh, use my instructor Terry.
Speaker B:And she'll tag me my personal name.
Speaker B:She'll then tag me my business page, she'll then tag my website, she'll then tag my podcast.
Speaker B:And she just starts and he does this and like, there's seven links for me.
Speaker B:I'm like, you like me?
Speaker B:A little personal promotion, a little walking advert and all.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Not everyone's going to be like that, but like I said, you get those community groups.
Speaker B:All it takes is one or two people to mention your name and you get in work.
Speaker B:And that's better than a referral of someone saying to me, oh, yeah, you was Terry.
Speaker A:Similar, maybe.
Speaker A:So I'm in Basingstoke and spotted in Basingstoke is the biggest Facebook group for the area.
Speaker A:And within that there was a lot.
Speaker A:So we have one taxi company that bought out the other three and people were really complaining about it.
Speaker A:And then as soon as one lone independent taxi firm with two people in it started looking for business in the area, people like, oh, thank goodness, like, go to that one.
Speaker A:It's really good and he's really good and everything.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, so I guess in a similar way, I guess it's like, you know, if an AA or another school was dominating an area and then you start up your business as a lone driving instructor, that could be all it takes because people are fed up with the same old instructors in a town.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there was issues of safety as well in the taxi companies as well.
Speaker A:So a lot of women were like, oh, you know, this guy's really trustworthy.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So just a local incident can then lead to talk about, oh, you know, we really need to find a different one company that might be dominant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:That's definitely happened in my area and.
Speaker A:And I bet that's common everywhere.
Speaker B:Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm in Baildon and I. I've been doing this for five years now, and in the five years I've been doing it, I've taught two people in Baildon.
Speaker B:Belden's quite a small little village, but that's because there are two instructors here that have been doing it for about 20 years.
Speaker B:Between them, they've commandeered Belden.
Speaker B:I've never tried to do that.
Speaker B:I'm elsewhere.
Speaker B:I do a bigger area.
Speaker B:But like you said, it's finding something local, it's finding something unique.
Speaker B:To you, that's a usp.
Speaker B:I think they call it a unique selling point.
Speaker B:But the other thing I wanted to just come back on there, something you mentioned back when you were talking about websites, you mentioned about prices being on websites.
Speaker B:How important, or is it important that prices should be visible?
Speaker A:It's interesting because I would have just instinctively said, yeah, it's obviously important.
Speaker A:But then when I asked Mum how she looked for the instructor for me, she was like, yeah, I didn't worry about that so much.
Speaker A:I just wanted to know about safety and pass rates first and then I would find to call about the prices.
Speaker A:So yeah, I think that's probably.
Speaker A:And, and I guess thinking about it, whether from a parent's perspective or thinking about it, for me, if I was worried about who I was with, yeah, I'd be looking at that or like.
Speaker A:And that would come across in reviews as well and I, then I wouldn't mind calling for a price.
Speaker A:So I, I think, yeah, I, I think that's my answer.
Speaker A:But obviously it's also nice to know like what to expect with the price.
Speaker A:But I know that in the driving instructor industry you basically.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's true actually.
Speaker A:Well, you hear a lot of competing on price and competing on, you know, bundles.
Speaker A:So it's like, you know, £100 for 10 lessons or something and then, you know, everyone jumps on that.
Speaker A:But actually if you had paid £30 or something you'd get a way better thing and you'd probably save money in the long run because.
Speaker A:Because you get better lessons and you pass your test quicker.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So yeah, I think money is quite hard to assess as a customer.
Speaker A:So yeah, I'd rather get a good one.
Speaker B:It's interesting you say that regarding prices.
Speaker B:I'll see if I can lay out the situation because I'd be interested with your thoughts on that.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There does seem to be two schools of thoughts.
Speaker B:I mean obviously there's probably more but two main schools of thoughts.
Speaker B:One is that we're generally too cheap and we should be raising as prices and the other is like you said, competing for prices.
Speaker B:Let's go as low as we can to try and attract custom.
Speaker B:From my own personal experience and I think I've got quite a good gauge on this in that I get why I live in Belden.
Speaker B:It's kind of on the border between Leeds and Bradford.
Speaker B:Leeds is generally a bit of a more affluent area than Bradford and I will speak to other instructors in Bradford that say they have to charge these lower rock bottom prices for Bradford.
Speaker B:But I never do.
Speaker B:I did once and I come away from that.
Speaker B:And so you've got those two competing trains of fault there.
Speaker B:Where would you stand on the prices there in that sense?
Speaker B:In the not even short question I'm asking you there.
Speaker B:But yeah, what would your take on that be?
Speaker B:Do you think that competing for lower prices to try and get customers in is necessarily a good way to go because obviously that's maybe attract the people who are more focused on price.
Speaker B:Or do you think that setting the prices to what you want and letting people come to you is the better option?
Speaker A:All I can think of reasons is.
Speaker A:All I can think of is reasons to stick to high, uncomfortable prices for you.
Speaker A:Because, I mean, that's.
Speaker A:Because it surprised me about what Mum said as well when I said, you know, didn't you care about price and bundles are advertised everywhere?
Speaker A:But Mum said no.
Speaker A:When I found a cheap one, I didn't either.
Speaker A:Didn't think they were good or I worried about, you know, how or just worried about something like, you know, or the pass rate wasn't good.
Speaker A:Usually it showed up as well and it just wasn't the first thing.
Speaker A:So Mum was like, you know, money is no object because actually, and, and that's how people should think as well about driving.
Speaker A:Because money, well, safety and independence and, you know, freedom and growing up and all of that.
Speaker A:If you are focused on the, as a student, if you're focused on the price, you may not be taking it so seriously and you should be seeing it as a long term, you should be thinking long term and thinking that paying more for good lessons will actually get you there faster and probably save money anyway.
Speaker A:And it is like a commitment and yes, it's expensive, but that just means you should wait until you're ready to do it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But yeah, and then on, on the other side is as an instructor, if you have very cheap prices, people may just worry that you're not good and safety is, you know, priceless, isn't it?
Speaker A:So definitely.
Speaker B:You did make a point there though, that I want to dig into a little bit, which was you mentioned about how people should think and that's something I've been talking about a lot recently, that people do have a certain, in my experience, a certain perception of the driving industry.
Speaker B:You look at the number of parents that teach their kids that the, the phrases we in this here a lot, which is you learn strive once you've passed, you know, you get that when you get experience and those sort of things.
Speaker B:I, I do feel there's at times quite a negative industry looking in.
Speaker B:And I think part of that comes from the perception we give off.
Speaker B:Like you said, if you're driving around in a, in a car with sign plus stunt side, say, you know, passing a week or, you know, 10 hours for under a pound, it's not necessarily giving off the, the best impression.
Speaker B:And I feel that we need to tell people how to think about us by changing their perception of us.
Speaker B:I think that's important.
Speaker B:And we need to raise our standards as an industry.
Speaker B:And one of the ways we can do that is, I mean, mark isn't quite the right term, but almost marketing and how we are on these social media platforms.
Speaker B:So not arguing and bickering and in some of the groups, I mean, where you'll see a student ask a question and you'll get 10 different instructors arguing about it, or the instructors groups where they argue with each other rather than having a, a discussion and you know, this kind of thing and it's almost feel like we need to make a united front a little bit more.
Speaker B:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker B:Is that something that you would agree with or do you think I'm being a little bit pompous there or.
Speaker A:No, I completely agree.
Speaker A:And well, in marketing terms, you're talking about positioning and it is with pretty much anything you buy as well.
Speaker A:Like you might if you go into a restaurant and it's £100 for a meal or it's £10, your perception is instantly different without even looking at the menu.
Speaker A:And so yeah, when you're just driving past in a car with that advertised or you're on Facebook and you're advertising that on price or on, or on speed of like, you know, passing.
Speaker A:Yeah, I just think.
Speaker A:Well, I just, Yeah, I, I just think that's not.
Speaker A:And also the thing is like, okay, people say it's expensive and you know, if it's, if you charged £100 an hour, which I'm sure would be nice, then people will be like, oh, that's way too expensive.
Speaker A:And you know, you're ripping people off.
Speaker A:But on the other hand, buying a car is really expensive.
Speaker A:And it's like anything.
Speaker A:Like, sure, it's great if we could all do things for free, but in this capitalist society, having a car is expensive in the first place, so you should probably take it seriously and, and, and see it that way too, because you shouldn't be able to afford it.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a valid point.
Speaker B:You know, I suppose if you can't afford driving license, how are you going to afford a car?
Speaker B:And that's not meant to belittle anyone at all.
Speaker B:It's, it's planning.
Speaker B:You know, if you need to put off lessons by six months to save up, then put off lessons by six months.
Speaker B:But I do think that.
Speaker B:And again, this is again part of what this podcast about shining light on our industry and looking at what we can do different, how we can change that perception as we said, position ourself in it in a certain way.
Speaker B:I think the other, probably the final topic I wanted to speak to you about, I'll touch upon is the position we're in now because we're in a position as an industry where there's a backlog of about half a million driving tests because of the whole lockdown scenario.
Speaker B:So in fear for the next year to 18 months, there shouldn't be a single driving structure that's shot and work.
Speaker B:We should just be snowed under and literally not have to advertise, not have to do a single thing and we'll just kept work pouring in that in reality that's what it's going to be like for the next 12 months.
Speaker B:My take on this is this is the perfect time to experiment.
Speaker B:If you're someone that's never used social media, for example, this is a perfect time to do it because if it goes wrong, you're still going to be on dated with students.
Speaker B:My fear as an industry is that people are going to rest on their laurels because they've got the work coming in and then in a year and 18 months when work starts drying up, there's going to be a lot of people that I genuinely think are going to be struggling.
Speaker B:So what advice would you give to driving instructors now to deal with the upcoming year?
Speaker B:I've made this a very long winded question, I do apologize, but what advice would you give to driving students to deal with the upcoming year of an influx of work?
Speaker A:The first concern, I guess, is that it would give the worst instructors, whoever they are, a boost of false confidence and they'll lapse into bad habits or they'll get away with teaching.
Speaker A:You know, the way they're teaching that isn't necessarily a good way and, or, you know, bad relationships with students or whatever.
Speaker A:And then that will, then, I mean, thinking on a society level, you know, a driving instructor is huge.
Speaker A:You're, you're a pillar for society and safety.
Speaker A:Without you, without a good instructor actually teaching safety and making sure someone passed the test, which is there for a reason, then yeah, there'll be a lot more danger in the world.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So just purely on that basis, just.
Speaker A:Yeah, just be careful of, I don't know, fake confidence and to make sure that you're doing the best job possible by your students.
Speaker A:And that involves finding the right people and the right relationships.
Speaker A:And so I guess that don't feel so arrogant if you have an influx of, you know, inquiries that's probably got nothing to do with you, as you said.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, and so the other side of that is how will people find you and how will they decide you?
Speaker A:Because if there is a huge influx of people desperate for instructors, well, actually, that makes me think that if that's a good problem to have.
Speaker A:But instructors may well need to have, you know, waiting lists that are quite long and that will show you how valued you are, that people are prepared to wait as well to get you.
Speaker A:So that could be interesting.
Speaker A:But all that comes down to how people find you and then how well they know you and trust you.
Speaker A:So I think with marketing and with experimenting, it's great because you should learn different ways of marketing.
Speaker A:Because, yeah, as you say, on a basic level, if referrals dry out, what are you going to do?
Speaker A:If you've learned nothing else, then you're stuck.
Speaker A:So, yeah, just experiment.
Speaker A:But in that experimentation, if you're deciding to use Facebook or even if you're deciding to use Clubhouse or starting a podcast or using TikTok, I mean, all those places with TikTok and stuff like that is probably a good way to catch 16, 17 year olds too.
Speaker A:And experimenting and having fun yourself, just being a personable person online is going to bring people to you who you're going to have better relationships with.
Speaker A:They're going to trust you easier and the lessons will go better as a result.
Speaker A:And that could be through any mode and any platform.
Speaker A:So you might as well just experiment.
Speaker A:I mean, most of us scroll our phones for something anyway, right?
Speaker A:You might as well just try, try it for work.
Speaker A:Are a lot of instructors, you say, you know, a lot of instructors haven't used social media in any great ways, but do you think they're on it personally?
Speaker A:Because if they are, then, you know, they might as well just try a little.
Speaker A:But do you think instructors in general hate social media?
Speaker B:It's a good question, and it is a difficult one to answer because I can't speak for all instructors.
Speaker B:There are some out there that are genuinely phenomenal.
Speaker B:They really are.
Speaker B:Not just marketing, but the way that they use social media, the way that they run a Facebook group, or the way that they interact with people on there.
Speaker B:But there is definitely a large proportion of people that either don't use social media, dislike social media or use it badly.
Speaker B:And I think the biggest number is probably they're using it badly.
Speaker B:And my take on that is partly a lot of them don't know how to use it.
Speaker B:They don't realize that an open Facebook group can be seen by everyone.
Speaker B:Or they don't realize that a comment they post a private Facebook group could be screenshot and posted elsewhere.
Speaker B:They don't realize that a student might go and search their name when they're looking for instructors and see all their racist posts and think I don't want to go to them.
Speaker B:You know, but I also think part of it is fear.
Speaker B:Fear of not knowing how to.
Speaker B:A fear of being judged and ridiculed by for doing something different or you know, being judged by 17 year olds because that 30 year old using TikTok.
Speaker B:I do think that there's a lot of different reasons there.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That the latter is a good point.
Speaker A:And you know that getting over the fear of even trying something new is a difficult one for all of us.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But from what you other said, from the previous things you said in terms of learning how to do it in the first place or learning to do something that you like, you know, learning what clubhouse is and how to operate it, or for example, that it's never been easier to find sort of how to start or how to tutorials and blogs and websites sort of go through it.
Speaker A:And even Facebook itself obviously been around for a long time.
Speaker A:They have their own lessons and academies and sort of how to start a group and stuff.
Speaker A:They explain it themselves.
Speaker A:And I'll find some links as well for people to start at the beginning because there are a lot of, especially with social media, there's a lot of sites dedicated to how to start things right from the beginning.
Speaker A:The other thing as well that I would really recommend experimenting with.
Speaker A:And if it's a failed experiment, you know, you haven't lost anything.
Speaker A:That's the other thing.
Speaker A:But with audio.
Speaker A:So you have a podcast, not this one, but you also have Five Minute Theory.
Speaker B:Five Minute Theory.
Speaker A:And, and I was thinking that.
Speaker A:And also audio books or audio courses should be something that driving instructors should think about because you could then almost follow along and practice in your car with it playing and, and sort of.
Speaker A:Or while you're, while you're, while you're in the car and you listen to music.
Speaker A:So I guess, you know, if someone's in musician as well, they could make theory into a song or something.
Speaker A:But you know, that's what we do in the car, right.
Speaker A:We listen to things and you could, you could kind of incorporate that and almost be a lesson without being there.
Speaker A:So that could be quite interesting.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:I think there's definitely more scope there for the audio for instructors and for learners.
Speaker B:You know, I suppose as a Learner.
Speaker B:If you're in the car with an instructor, the instructor can talk anyway.
Speaker B:So it's almost not removing the need for it.
Speaker B:But there's other areas where that could be used, obviously.
Speaker B:But I think there's definitely a big scope for that with instructors, which again is part of the reason behind this podcast, doing it in such a way.
Speaker B:And there has actually been a few podcasts released for instructors.
Speaker B:Well, a few.
Speaker B:I think there's two, including mine over lockdown.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I was very surprised when I was kind of looking on social media and for podcasts about driving or driving instructors or even, you know, students like talking about their journey to learn to drive and that that could be interesting.
Speaker A:Like you could kind of, someone could do a joint podcast, the teacher and a learner.
Speaker A:Like, who knows that?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, it's, there's definitely a lack of that with audio.
Speaker A:And I think another thing, when I was searching as well for how to decide to look for instructors, there was kind of a checklist.
Speaker A:And I can find the link if you want it.
Speaker A:There's a checklist of things that parents could ask or check before they kind of book in.
Speaker A:And one of them was, would the instructor allow the parent to kind of sit in the back to see how the instructor teaches?
Speaker A:So then when they practice with the parent, they kind of know what to go over.
Speaker A:And I was just thinking.
Speaker A:And that's a great possibility.
Speaker A:But then you could almost do that in the same way with an audio course or an audio, like, you know, follow along and then the parent can know what a lesson should cover.
Speaker A:Because the whole point of that part of the checklist was that parents may have passed their test, you know, 30 years ago.
Speaker A:And, and that's changed a lot.
Speaker A:I mean, it changes yearly or changes often.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or, you know, and different instructors are different.
Speaker A:Well, they're not supposed to be, but they are.
Speaker B:I mean, with a couple of the ideas you mentioned there, you may or not be giving away my next release.
Speaker B:But it's a valid point because at the minute, if a 17 year old is having to wait six months for a driving lesson, who's going to teach them in six months?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And I would rather have someone out teaching them safely and correctly than not at all.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, and the other thing I like what you talk about there is thinking outside the box.
Speaker B:It's doing something a little bit different.
Speaker B:And that's the theme of running through these podcasts.
Speaker B:I'm not, as I'm recording these is the people I'm Speaking to.
Speaker B:We're just talking about doing something slightly different.
Speaker B:We're not staying on that same track that's been in place since, like the 80s or 70s and teaching the same way.
Speaker B:We're doing things a little bit different and not being scared to do that.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that kind of brings me to my, my final question.
Speaker B:Question, which is so almost putting you on the spot a little bit to finish up with.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now you can only pick one.
Speaker B:So if you were to give one piece of advice, one tip to driving instructors across, across the uk, it could be marking, could be anything.
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:What one piece of advice or tip would you give to us instructors?
Speaker A:Haven't I given you enough already?
Speaker B:I want one more.
Speaker B:I want one thing that we're going to take away from the most.
Speaker A:Well, I kind of hinted and it weaves into everything I said, I guess, but I would like to see instructors and teachers talk more about, well, tell more stories.
Speaker A:So the story and kind of through that, communicating the value of it.
Speaker A:And it's to learn.
Speaker A:Storytelling is also to help people make that emotional decision, an emotional connection with you.
Speaker A:But it's like what I was saying with them, you know, safety and road accidents and all of that.
Speaker A:It comes down to, you know, how you teach and freedom and independence and celebrations on Facebook about, oh, I bought my first car or I passed my test.
Speaker A:There's whole stories behind that.
Speaker A:And even with me talking about, like, oh, I hadn't driven for 10 years and I was really scared, but I didn't know how to communicate with the stranger or whatever those, those stories.
Speaker A:And because I think just a random conversation, when you bring up, oh, you know, driving instructions, people instantly think it's a bit boring.
Speaker A:It's a bit like clutch control room learning to indicate or something.
Speaker A:But actually, no, it weaves into like every part of everything and it's independence and safety in particular.
Speaker A:And it's so important.
Speaker A:So if you could tell more stories about all of that and it's not so dry and boring and that will get students more excited, but more excited about the right things.
Speaker A:Like, like safety.
Speaker B:I like that.
Speaker B:I like that a lot.
Speaker B:And even that goes right back to what we were saying at the beginning about the accidents not being reported.
Speaker B:You know, we can, as instructors, we can tell those stories.
Speaker B:You know, that's not the, the fun, pleasant stories, but it's still the story of something that matters.
Speaker B:As we say we see every day people driving on the road.
Speaker B:We don't say every day the five people have died on the Road.
Speaker B:So there's no reason as an entry we can't raise those stories.
Speaker B:We can celebrate the people that have, you know, failed 10 tests and pass the 11.
Speaker B:We can celebrate the people that have had 60 hours.
Speaker B:Can celebrate the people that picked up after 10.
Speaker B:You know, like, that's a good piece of advice.
Speaker B:I like that one.
Speaker A:Yay.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:Glad I didn't disappoint being put on the spot there.
Speaker A:But, but, yeah, but I mean, the first thing I was thinking of when I was thinking, oh, you know, what do I talk to you about?
Speaker A:It's like, actually it's so much more than just sitting in a car and it's when a 16 year old thinks, oh, I want to learn to drive now, that signifies so much more.
Speaker A:That's growing up.
Speaker A:That's, that's, you know, independence.
Speaker A:That's all sorts of things.
Speaker B:Yeah, I have written that down before anyone else hears it because that may be my new tagline, driving.
Speaker B:It's so much more than sitting in a car.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's quite a good one actually.
Speaker B:I am a fan of that and I am, I am taking that.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for giving us your time today.
Speaker B:It's been brilliant.
Speaker B:It's been really insightful.
Speaker B:There's been some really good short tips and some.
Speaker B:Some bigger explanations as well.
Speaker B:So that's been awesome.
Speaker B:Where can people find you if they wanted to contact you to ask you for more advice, to join your membership, to just be friends with the wonderful Amanda?
Speaker B:Where can people find you?
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:And obviously I'm on Facebook and it's how we met.
Speaker A:So you can go to my Facebook page, which is a leak Pounces.
Speaker A:And my membership is called Pounce.
Speaker A:So that's why it's not just that I randomly Pounce and a website which is currently under construction, but it will be pouncepride.com and everywhere else on Instagram, Twitter and stuff.
Speaker A:I'm Leakwright.
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker B:Thank you very much for your time today.
Speaker B:I will put all those links, as I mentioned before, into the show notes.
Speaker B:So, yes, thank you for your time today.
Speaker A:Oh, thank you.
Speaker A:This has been great.
Speaker B:Thank you to Amanda there.
Speaker B:My theory on these podcasts is that if I find them interesting, other people find them interesting and I found that fascinating.
Speaker B:I think the idea of building relationships and market into a niche is something we could do more.
Speaker B:So whether you like working with the youthful exuberance of 17 year olds or whether you're someone that would rather work with older students, whatever your marketing niche, I just think it's a brilliant time to start building relationships with those.
Speaker B:And again that doesn't mean spending 20 hours a day on Facebook.
Speaker B:It means just tailoring the way you speak slightly and some brilliant tips and advice from Amanda and I think it's something we can all learn from there.
Speaker B:So yeah, big shout out to Amanda for coming on.
Speaker B:Make sure you check the show notes and go give her a follow.
Speaker B:She drops a lot of useful information if you want to learn how to build relationships.
Speaker B:Amanda's someone that can teach you that just by following her.
Speaker B:So thank you for listening today.
Speaker B:If you enjoyed this podcast, make sure you click subscribe wherever you're listening so that the next one will drop straight into your podcast feed.
Speaker B:If you want to get in touch with us, show head over@tcdrive.co.uk can get in touch with me by any method over there.
Speaker B:And remember, let's just keep raising standards and stay safe.
