The Green Room #51 - Contraflow Conversations
In this Green Room episode, Terry Cook is joined by Chris Benstead and Stewart Lochrie for a lively and thought-provoking discussion about the latest developments in the driver training world.
They reflect on upcoming events like the Intelligent Instructor Expo and the Meginar, before diving into the DVSA’s recent consultation on test booking changes - a topic that’s sparked plenty of debate. Chris and Stewart share differing views but demonstrate how disagreement can be handled with respect and honesty.
The conversation also explores the pressures of social media, the challenges of being visible in the industry, and the importance of supporting one another. Whether you’re fully engaged in the industry or just watching from the sidelines, this episode offers plenty to reflect on — and a reminder that how we talk is just as important as what we say.
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Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker B:About what drives them.
Speaker C:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast, green room number 51.
Speaker C:This is your show.
Speaker C:We cover all the latest news and hot topics from within our little driving instructor world.
Speaker C:As always, I am your mediocre host, Terry Cook.
Speaker C:I'm delighted to be here, but even more delighted that you have chosen to listen.
Speaker C:And you'll be delighted it's not just me because I am joined by by the co founder of the DITC, the verbal virtuoso, Mr.
Speaker C:Chris Benstead.
Speaker C:How we doing Chris?
Speaker A:Hello.
Speaker A:I'm good and I nearly said I'm lovely to be here.
Speaker A:I'll stick with that.
Speaker A:I'm lovely to be here.
Speaker C:You are indeed lovely to be here.
Speaker C:We are also joined by the chair of the ADI NJC, the exquisitely exceptional Mr.
Speaker C:Stuart Lockery.
Speaker C:How are we doing Stuart?
Speaker B:I'm all the better after that introduction, Terry.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:It's great to be with you both.
Speaker C:Well, we do like these, these fancy intros that seem to be doing the rounds at the minute.
Speaker C:So let's see, we'll keep on going.
Speaker C:I think we've gone away from WWF wrestlers, we've gone to some a bit more, a bit more fancy.
Speaker C:But we are back because in May we hit pause on the green room because we kind of decided that there wasn't an awful lot on use about and rather than try and force in we would do it as and when new news comes up.
Speaker C:So six weeks later we're back because the DVSA decided to do a survey which seems to have ruffled a few feathers.
Speaker C:Not least the people joining me today which may or may not be why we've got them on.
Speaker C:But before we get into the survey which will come onto, there's a little bit of news I want to touch on because first of all the intelligent instructor and ADI NGSC that bits gets forgotten a lot have released details of the expo which has now been announced.
Speaker C:So I'm just going to throw it open to you guys.
Speaker C:We'll start with you Stuart, as a chair of the njc.
Speaker C:Give me your thoughts on this year's Expo.
Speaker B:Yeah, so obviously very excited, a little bit stressed because it seems like we go from convention Expo, convention expo and we spend all time organizing it and running it and we're all exhausted and then Gina sends you a piece of paper to say what do you want to Talk about in 6 months time?
Speaker B:It's like you're on the hamster wheel kind of thing.
Speaker B:But yeah, the biggest thing is that it's a new venue, which means that we're doing the right thing and instructors are coming back and instructors are telling their friends.
Speaker B:And I like to think.
Speaker B:I'm not sure if we have the data on this, but it feels like every year we're getting more PDIs visiting the NJC stand, which is a big thing for all of the associations to get PDIs into these kind of training events.
Speaker B:Because as, as, as we all know, the sooner we can, you know, let people see the good side of the industry, then they've got something to compare it to.
Speaker B:After they've been down at the test center for nine months, they get to see the alternative before the.
Speaker B:Before the test center.
Speaker B:So that, that's brilliant.
Speaker B:Very excited about that.
Speaker B:Just, I mean, the lineup is the lineup.
Speaker B:I think we all kind of know the regular faces.
Speaker B:We are the regular faces now.
Speaker B:I kind of feel like.
Speaker B:Which is positive.
Speaker B:It kind of forces us to keep thinking about new things that instructors are going to want to hear us talk about, which is good.
Speaker B:But I think that I'm quite excited that we have a doctor attending the conference this year.
Speaker B:I just saw that a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker B:So hopefully he's going to be talking to us about relevant things about health and wellbeing.
Speaker B:Chris, I know that you started the ball rolling and all that kind of stuff with EDI Walkback and at the ngc, we've just amended our constitution to make sure that that becomes part of our, Part of our kind of function, that we pay attention to that a bit more and provide services.
Speaker B:Um, I'm hoping that we also have, if not Ian Greenwood, someone representing the victims of road crashes.
Speaker B:Ian Greenwood was excellent at the convention.
Speaker B:Would have loved to have seen him, given more time, given the distance that he traveled to be there.
Speaker B:So hopefully he'll be back.
Speaker B:But I know that if he's unable to make it, we'll definitely have someone from that side.
Speaker B:But yeah, so that, that, that, that, that's my feelings on it at the moment.
Speaker B:Looking forward to it.
Speaker C:To be fair, it's five minutes uproad from me, so, you know, we could have car shared if we planned it, but.
Speaker B:Oh, there we go.
Speaker C:Yeah, we know.
Speaker C:For next time.
Speaker C:But the other thing actually is the.
Speaker C:You mentioned the convention, we mentioned the Expo.
Speaker C:In between that, we've had the Scotland conference, which you were kind of in charge of with that.
Speaker C:So do you want to just give us a bit of a rundown on that?
Speaker B:Yeah, how could I forget?
Speaker B:That was really good.
Speaker B:That was the second year we'd run the EDI NGC Scotland Conference sold out very quickly for the second year in a row.
Speaker B:I think this year was better than last year and not just because you were speaking, Terry.
Speaker B:I just felt.
Speaker B:I think I was very nervous the first year we ran it.
Speaker B:I don't know why, let's not go into a therapy session for me.
Speaker B:But I feel more confident this year that what we were delivering to Scottish driving instructors was relevant.
Speaker B:I thought we had a really.
Speaker B:And a few of the speakers said this, that we had a really engaged crowd of ADIs and PDIs.
Speaker B:They asked lots of really good questions.
Speaker B:The guys who helped run it, of which you were one of those guys.
Speaker B:It just felt really slick all day.
Speaker B:Got to give a shout out to Adam from the borders, who's a member of the ADI njc.
Speaker B:He's not on the governing committee, but he comes to all these conferences and volunteers to help and he was in charge of the cards, like the five minute, two minute, one minute thing.
Speaker B:And we got several comments that the timekeeping was excellent.
Speaker B:So, yeah, shout out to Adam, he got his own special mention and he'll be back at the Expo this year as well.
Speaker B:But no, again, it's a good problem to have.
Speaker B: moving to a larger venue for: Speaker B:So, yeah, all good, all looking good.
Speaker B:And you're Molly Milk and back again.
Speaker C:Terry, if you'll have me, I'll be there.
Speaker C:But I love the fact that with the conference, with the conventions, with the Expos, we're always looking at moving to bigger venues.
Speaker C:I'm sometimes reluctant about that because I like things, I'm a bit like.
Speaker C:I like them as they are sometimes, but I think it's positive that, that more people are coming and I will just.
Speaker C:Actually, you mention Adam there with his timekeeping cards.
Speaker C:I love it because every time it allows me to do that joke of, oh, I've got 10 out of 10 now it's going down.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:Chris, the Expo you highlighted somewhat quite important, which they haven't done before, which was the fact that they've released the speakers in pecking order almost.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:In order of importance.
Speaker A:If you have a look, I got pipped by Loveday, but if you have a look on the website to see who's speaking.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Order of importance.
Speaker A:Diana Todd was less impressed.
Speaker C:I feel like we need to clarify because not everyone will know this.
Speaker C:It's Alphabetical order.
Speaker C:But I did speak to Richard Stars, who is the guy, the intelligent instructor, about this, because when did I speak to him?
Speaker C:The young driver Focus event.
Speaker C:I spoke to him there and said that I was actually quite annoyed that he'd put Love D at the top.
Speaker C:He's done everyone else now for the corridor and put Love D at the top.
Speaker C:He's like, yeah, but she's a murderer.
Speaker B:I don't care.
Speaker C:But speaking of the main event, Chris, the main event tends to go on last and we slash.
Speaker C:You have both all that.
Speaker C:You and I could go up against the DVSA this year.
Speaker C:So we will be going to last.
Speaker C:So I think that we could call ourselves core main eventers.
Speaker C:What's the thought process between me and you going on last at the Expo?
Speaker A:I, I think there's a lot of things, there's a little bit of tongue in cheek.
Speaker A:I think with it all of going, you know, why not, why shouldn't we be?
Speaker A:But it's that thing of the industry tends to focus on the DVSA and they tend to focus on, you know, we're looking inward all the time.
Speaker A:I, I said this on a video at least released yesterday, that we were looking at the timeline.
Speaker A:It's been at least 10 years of, of me feeling and saying that we should all be turning around and looking outwards.
Speaker A:And this was before the mention of client centered.
Speaker A:It still existed, but it hadn't seeped into the industry in the way that it has now that it was.
Speaker A:You know, let's look out, let's look at maximum standards, let's look at all those optimum things, not just turn and look at the dvsa.
Speaker A:And especially, you know, as Stuart's just been saying about the people that are speaking, you know, there's some amazing content included inside of, you know, just the innovation and the approaches of trainers that are inside there.
Speaker A:And that's, that's not just instructors now.
Speaker A:There's, there's, let's say, doctors.
Speaker A:I, for a moment, when you said my name after that, I thought I was getting a diagnosis and you knew something I didn't.
Speaker A:But, you know, it, it's, it's a whole raft of people and it's bringing together road safety and driving instructors who thought they would be, you know, natural, natural bedfellows because they never seemed to be.
Speaker A:And we're building bridges and same thing talking to the DVSA who mentioned, you know, looking at insurance and being a tie in with them.
Speaker A:I've been trying to do that for, again, Probably a decade now and trying to get a foot in the door.
Speaker A:There's opportunities now that weren't there before, so it's always felt very strange.
Speaker A:The highlight of the event is.
Speaker A:Let's listen to the DVSA before you go in the room.
Speaker A:It's kind of, oh, I feel like I should, because I might miss something.
Speaker A:And then you go in and you listen and you haven't missed anything.
Speaker A:And people come out having had an amazingly positive day, feeling incredibly angry and frustrated.
Speaker A:Too often, political answers or telling us what we already knew, but at least we had the chance to ask the question directly and we had the chance to vent our frustration.
Speaker A:Or there's always the one person who will ask about the local set of traffic lights near their test centre.
Speaker B:Toilets.
Speaker B:Toilets.
Speaker B:Test center toilets.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I personally don't care.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's just me, but I.
Speaker A:You know, unless I need that toilet, then I might worry.
Speaker A:But, you know, that focus, it just.
Speaker A:It doesn't seem like the modern approach to me.
Speaker A:I think there's.
Speaker A:There's probably more interesting things we could do.
Speaker A:No one else was doing it, so I threw the idea in and I didn't want to go down on my own, so I took Terry with me.
Speaker A:But they liked the concept and the ability.
Speaker A:You know, we're not looking to overshadow because we won't have as many people that want to listen to Love Day, but there might be some who don't want to listen to Love Day, so we're giving them an alternative in the same way that Channel 4 gave an alternative to the Queen's Speech?
Speaker C:So much to come back on there.
Speaker C:So, first of all, I agree it's always better to go down with somebody.
Speaker C:Secondly, you said about missing stuff.
Speaker C:I mean, the thing is, if you don't go, you will miss stuff.
Speaker C:Because was it last year or the year before, where Loveday spoke quite explicitly about not being against the reselling of tests and not necessarily being against bots, and yet we've just had this survey come out which kind of implies the opposite.
Speaker C:But what I would say is that, again, speaking to Richard Stahls, I know this isn't going to happen, but I'm mooting it anyway, because I threw it to him.
Speaker C:If we get more people than the dvsa, he said he will put driving instructors as the main event next year.
Speaker C:So there you go.
Speaker C:Now, the chances are he's going to put us in a small room, the dvsa, so it'll be possible, but either way, if we can get 10 people attending, Chris, I will be happy.
Speaker A:Can we work on percentage of the space that's filled?
Speaker A:I think that we've got to work the metrics because that's the same as will happen in any DBSA survey which we might come to.
Speaker A:You've got to make the figures represent what you want to.
Speaker A:So if we work on percentage of the room filled, the three of us in a broom cupboard would be absolutely.
Speaker A:No, Stuart's not going to come and.
Speaker B:See us, is he?
Speaker B:The thing is, I think you're both being just overly humble here.
Speaker B:I think that you're both going to manage absolutely fine to scrape together enough of a crowd to make it look at least not overly embarrassing.
Speaker B:I was head to head with Lillian Greenwood, so the new MP for the incoming government and I think I did okay.
Speaker B:I think I was maybe 90% full in my room.
Speaker A:Where is she now?
Speaker A:Just saying.
Speaker A:And also I believe the message from intelligent instructor was that Loveday would sell more tickets.
Speaker A:I'd like love to love day to put on a day's training course and I'll put on a day's training course for the same price and we'll see who sells more.
Speaker B:You really don't want Loveday to be delivered on a training course.
Speaker B:Come on, come on.
Speaker C:Really do because I want to attend it and just see what kind of skip fire goes on and as a result.
Speaker B:But yeah, it'll be on PDI ADI.
Speaker C:Before you know it, won't it Mark for Eddie.
Speaker C:Yeah, the I don't know scripts are gathering enough people so we're not overly embarrassed.
Speaker C:That's how I live my life.
Speaker C:I think the life goes.
Speaker C:Life goals.
Speaker C:Life goals.
Speaker C:The, the, the only thing I dislike about this and I've always said this I think I say every time it's a, it's a.
Speaker C:I think you said it's true actually it's kind of the same people and I don't.
Speaker C:Nothing against that but I would like to see a few people from outside the industry a couple more to add that little bit more variety because we, we are in danger of sometimes of being quite enclosed as an industry.
Speaker C:But that's just my faults because that ties means quite nicely which next I'm going to mention which is instructor Megan r.
Speaker C:Which on the 10th of July at 11am this is sandwiched nicely in between the intelligent instructor.
Speaker C:Oh, I'll get these wrong Super 6 and the PDIADI full day with four instructors.
Speaker C:So they're going to seal my audience.
Speaker C:So it's fine but if you want to go into one, pick one.
Speaker C:But pick mine.
Speaker C:But The Megan R.
Speaker C: Jul,: Speaker C:And I'll announce the speaker.
Speaker C:The speakers that we've got.
Speaker C:So we have Andy McFarlane, Graham Carter, Hannah May, who is from the private therapy practice.
Speaker C:We've got Tom Stenson, Rebecca Morris of Vision Zero Communications, Kevin Tracy Field, Hayley Field.
Speaker C:They're not related.
Speaker C:At least I don't think they are.
Speaker C:I should check, really.
Speaker C:Hayley Field is the lifestyle ninja.
Speaker C:And we've got Kate Walker from the Derbys Diabetes Safety Organization and indeed Phil Cowley.
Speaker C:So I'm going to come to you first for this, Chris, and I'm going to ask for your thoughts on that lineup.
Speaker C:And I am banning you from saying that is a Terry style lineup.
Speaker A:How much was it to listen to those ten amazing speakers?
Speaker C:Nine.
Speaker C:And it's free, is it?
Speaker A:No, there's ten.
Speaker A:You're counting Kevin Tracy as one person, aren't you?
Speaker C:I'm counting the speed, the sessions.
Speaker C:Nine sessions.
Speaker C:Ten people.
Speaker A:Ten people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Right, there we go.
Speaker A:So three.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:Where would, where else would you get that?
Speaker A:You know that, that, that is an expo without traveling.
Speaker A:Why would people not.
Speaker A:I am always fascinated to see the diversity of the lineup and, and whether it gels and it shouldn't.
Speaker A:It should.
Speaker A:They, it should clash.
Speaker A:And you, you should have this, you know, this move from one to the other where it doesn't make sense, but I know that it will, it'll work and it'll make sense.
Speaker A:So I look forward to that because I will find myself sitting there going, hang on a mo.
Speaker A:We've gone from, you know, what have we had previously, someone talking about something fairly mundane to breathing heavily.
Speaker A:It's not often that happens in my life.
Speaker C:Oh, I only had to replace two people this year, one of whom is a partner of someone that may be on the screen right now and another one we may be talking about later.
Speaker C:So Stuart, have you got any thoughts on this lineup?
Speaker B:Nothing is great.
Speaker B:Obviously, as a former Megan Earth speaker, Terry, I remember, I don't think we knew each other particularly well at the time, but I found the whole experience manic in an exciting way.
Speaker B:I felt under pressure on the clock and I don't know how you felt.
Speaker B:It must have been crazy.
Speaker B:But yeah, I thought it was exciting.
Speaker B:I thought it was new.
Speaker B:I think it was the second one.
Speaker B:I must have missed the first one.
Speaker B:But yeah, I think it's brilliant and it's going to be brilliant again.
Speaker C:Undoubtedly you're on the first one.
Speaker C:And yes, the timings I gave up after Bob and Bob was the first speaker, so I learned from that.
Speaker B:It was a technical problems again, wasn't it?
Speaker C:Yes, technical problems.
Speaker C:But yeah, I'm really excited about this.
Speaker C:And it's the 10th of July, 11am make sure you subscribe to the Instructor Podcast newsletter.
Speaker C:It's the best place to find all the informational links and stuff to sign up for it.
Speaker C:And if you want to find where that is, there's links in the show notes or you can go to the website, which is instructorpodcast.com and sign up over there.
Speaker C:But let's take a minute to set the table before we get stuck into the meat of today's episode.
Speaker C:So let's go with Stuart first.
Speaker C:Stuart, do you want to just remind us who you are and some interesting things about you?
Speaker B:Oh, come on.
Speaker B:My name's Stuart Locri, I'm the chairman at the adingc, also in a small driving school and I'm the founder at Bright Coaching where we offer a professional diploma in coaching and behavioural change for safe driving.
Speaker C:And Chris, same to you.
Speaker A:So I updated my in my LinkedIn today because I suddenly realized it was out of date and there's people that use LinkedIn because I don't.
Speaker A:So I am according to my LinkedIn, the theory specialist at Theory Test explained I do theory stuff.
Speaker A:If you've got theory problems, get in touch.
Speaker A:I am the co founder of the ditc, the Driving Instructor and Trainers Collective where I point people in the right direction for what they need but they can't find or they're what they don't know that they need and they can't find it.
Speaker A:So I do that.
Speaker A:And then I also occasionally work with my own driving school and my own instructors, so I look forward to that as well.
Speaker A:If anyone's got questions about running a driving school, I'm happy to chat because I've done lots of that this week.
Speaker C:I went on LinkedIn for the first time in a while recently and yes, lots of notifications, lots of messages and I missed lots of opportunities, which is slightly annoying, but either way, yes, you're listening to the Instructor podcast.
Speaker C:To find out more, head to the instructorpodcast.com if you enjoy these and you want even more, sign up to the premium membership.
Speaker C:There's currently a week's free trial on the ten pound tier, but the biggest thing that I am pushing at the moment is the mega.
Speaker C:Now it is completely free.
Speaker C:I don't earn anything from it.
Speaker C:No one gets paid.
Speaker C:It's just a way to give people 20 minute segments of interesting stuff.
Speaker C:So make sure you've got that in your calendar for the 10th of July at 11am but let's move on, because, as I said at the start of the show, we hit pause on the green room until some news came along and then the DVC decided to release a survey that I believe they're causing corner consultation.
Speaker C:Chris, you have been remarkably quiet about this.
Speaker C:You haven't said any word about this survey to anyone.
Speaker C:And so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Speaker A:My thoughts are, before you walk into a DVSA room of a DVSA organised meeting, don't put out a possibly slightly controversial video about your thoughts, because you'll stay up all weekend worrying about what's going to happen and whether they're going to shut the doors on you.
Speaker A:But all is good.
Speaker A:Yes, it's not a survey, it's a consultation.
Speaker A:I was corrected twice on that front, because the difference between that is a survey is they're just asking questions.
Speaker A:A consultation is they're actually listening to your opinion.
Speaker A:I think it's very easy for driving instructors to.
Speaker A:To accept the options that they are given as being the only options.
Speaker A:And I think that's where I come at it from, is just because they're the options that are given doesn't mean they're the right ones.
Speaker A:Just because you say no doesn't mean there aren't going to be other options.
Speaker A:Although that does assume that they're going to listen in the first place.
Speaker A:And I am assured that they will, that that's part of the process.
Speaker A:It's a, I believe, a legal requirement that they listen.
Speaker A:So, you know, I am cynical about it, but my biggest fear is that we're going to give something away and not get it back.
Speaker A:And we have to remember that behind the scenes, at the moment, they are planning the new booking system, which they have a budget for, that is going out to tender or has gone out to tender.
Speaker A:So I don't know if they've got actually someone who's.
Speaker A:Who's doing it yet, but that's what they're.
Speaker A:That's the stage they're looking at.
Speaker A:So they're planning this system and the questions on the survey are very much suggesting a cheaper version of the system because there'd be no driving instructors involved in it.
Speaker A:And if you've built that, there's no taking that back, there's no adding us on later because there's no budget for it.
Speaker A:So you know, that's my concern.
Speaker A:The most important thing is, whatever you think, go and fill the blooming thing in.
Speaker A:Because the biggest problem is if we do not take advantage of the opportunities that are provided for us to give feedback, we won't get asked next time.
Speaker A:So if you don't want to be shut out of something, you have to engage with it.
Speaker A:That doesn't mean you have to accept it or agree, but you have to engage with it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:Calling all cars if you like, all driving instructors need to have filled in that survey.
Speaker A:If you haven't, you're letting the team down, right?
Speaker A:You specifically, whoever it is that hasn't.
Speaker A:I don't care whether you think they won't listen, then go on there and fill in.
Speaker A:You never listen anyway as part of your answer, that's absolutely fine, I support it.
Speaker A:We need numbers and we need opinions in there.
Speaker A:If you're not sure how to write an opinion, go and explain your position to chatgpt as best you can and it will write it for you.
Speaker A:It will take your words and it will put it into, into something that sounds better because we're not all very good at stringing sentences together.
Speaker A:You know, it's not always the way that we communicate.
Speaker A:So that's the way we've got to engage.
Speaker A:Do so find a way of making it work.
Speaker A:Ask someone else to write it for you.
Speaker A:I don't care.
Speaker A:Fill in the survey.
Speaker A:I'll say consultation.
Speaker A:So do it, fill it in, get your point across because otherwise it won't be there in the future.
Speaker A:As a personal opinion, be careful what you wish for because you need to think long term, because a short term win, if that's what it provides, doesn't, and I don't think it will, but it doesn't mean that, you know, then they're going to put the plug back in and then allow us access.
Speaker A:Because I genuinely don't believe that will be there if it's not needed in a new system, because that would be a waste of government money.
Speaker C:I'm not calling it consultation.
Speaker C:I refuse to, because it isn't.
Speaker C:You're asking clause questions.
Speaker C:It's not.
Speaker C:I realize there's a box there where you can type stuff in.
Speaker C:It's not a consultation, it's a survey.
Speaker C:But anyway, that's probably the least important thing, but it is my pet peeve at the minute.
Speaker C:Stuart, let's come to you for your overall thoughts and whether there's any disagreement or agreement.
Speaker C:Chris?
Speaker B:Oh, that's a bit awkward that you just added that in because now I need to disagree with both of you, which puts me in a very awkward position.
Speaker B:I think as a consultation, I think a survey is what do you think?
Speaker B:And a consultation is what you want to happen.
Speaker B:And yet you can have a consultation with crap options.
Speaker B:But as a consultation something will happen as a result of, of this consultation and that something might be nothing.
Speaker B:So when I first obviously go into the NASP meetings, I kind of, to give a bit of context of where I approach this from.
Speaker B:Since I became chairman, actually since became acting chairman at the ngc, you become privy to all of our members frustrations, very real frustrations.
Speaker B:And you get a real insight into the amount of stress that's out there.
Speaker B:Not that I was oblivious to it before by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker B:My circle, if you like, the network of driving instructors that I'm privy to in Glasgow in Scotland and the Scottish Facebook groups.
Speaker B:My feeling is that the vast majority of driving instructors don't book the tests for their pupils and they very much leave them to it.
Speaker B:When I was, I was full time driving instructor for 10 years and I didn't book any tests for any of my pupils ever.
Speaker B:I couldn't tell you what my obs login is or how to go into the system at all.
Speaker B:So the frustration is coming from members.
Speaker B:Members write and here's my ideas.
Speaker B:Ideas everywhere.
Speaker B:Honestly, six or seven times a week there's an email from somebody with it with an idea.
Speaker B:And the overbearing feeling was that something radical needs to be done outside of the obviously very common ones.
Speaker B:Hire more examiners, pay them more money.
Speaker B:All these arguments.
Speaker B:The DVSA had to do something more radical.
Speaker B:And that built up and built up and built up.
Speaker B:And then it was maybe a couple of months ago, it was just kind of coming to a head at the last NAS meeting.
Speaker B:It was like, what are you doing that is more radical than the seven point Plan?
Speaker B:Because the seven Point plan is obviously not working.
Speaker B:And the DIA and the MSA and the ngc, all of our members had representations from our members that were saying something radical needs to be done.
Speaker B:So my first impression when I saw the DVSA consultation was right, okay, some of the things on this are suggestions from driving instructors.
Speaker B:These are not DVSA suggestions.
Speaker B:These are suggestions that driving instructors have written to membership organizations with that we have passed on to DVSA because that's our role.
Speaker B:It's not up to us to filter things out because we think they're daft.
Speaker B:We will pass these things on.
Speaker B:So my first impression was, okay, taking Driving instructors out.
Speaker B:Well, no, that's not sensible at all.
Speaker B:Making learners.
Speaker B:And this is me separating my personal opinion from the ADI njc, which does not have a stance on this.
Speaker B:It cannot have a stance on this because in the way the DITC can.
Speaker B:DITC is Chris.
Speaker B:And here we have a governing committee of 20 people.
Speaker B:I can't jump onto Facebook and put out a video saying this is what I think you should do.
Speaker B:I had to wait till the week on Saturday for the governing committee meeting in person down in Coventry.
Speaker B:But my first impression personally was that it doesn't make sense to me that we give learners control.
Speaker B:It doesn't make sense to me that we have only driving instructors with control.
Speaker B:It makes sense to keep that the same.
Speaker B:So that was an option.
Speaker B:That is an option in the consultation.
Speaker B:You can vote no change on that bit and you can vote for something else in the second part and on the swaps.
Speaker B:This was something that Peter Harvey spoke very well about at the NASS meetings and that was something that was a little bit radical.
Speaker B:We were under the impression that the system just wouldn't be able to do it because DVSE hadn't came and told us that.
Speaker B:So then to find out that it could be done was like, okay, so that's an option.
Speaker B:Let's see what the industry says.
Speaker B:When I saw Chris put his video out, I was like, what's he doing?
Speaker B:That was honestly my false reaction.
Speaker B:Chris and I jumped on immediately to Facebook and I sent you a message and you very graciously said, I'm free now.
Speaker B:And we had a really good call and I needed to understand where he was coming from because I didn't know where you were coming from.
Speaker B:Chris, it seemed to me that, and obviously I know you, no offense meant by this, but it felt like you were campaigning on behalf of the industry, but only the section of the industry that had the same ideas and approaches to it as you did.
Speaker B:And I don't think that was fair.
Speaker B:And I think I kind of explained that to you.
Speaker B:I hope I managed to explain that to you.
Speaker B:And my worry then, which I probably didn't articulate very well, but I'm better able to do it now.
Speaker B:My worry is that we have people in the industry who have made representation to us with these radical solutions and they don't particularly want control over driving tests, they just want some kind of fix.
Speaker B:They want a short term fix.
Speaker B:And that's probably my approach at the moment, personally.
Speaker B:I want people to stop emailing the NGC shouting at us, obviously, but I Want my driving school, the instructors in my driving school to, to have a bit of, a bit of leeway around, distress that they're going through with their pupils.
Speaker B:And if this could, this, this could possibly do that.
Speaker B:So why don't we try it?
Speaker B:That, that's probably my, my kind of personal stance on it, if you have one.
Speaker B:And at the ngc, we weren't able to do that.
Speaker B:We were not able to.
Speaker B:To go out and say, we encourage you all to do this the way that the DITC did.
Speaker B:We can't do that because we know that all of our members have such a wide range of opinions.
Speaker B:But also we have that on the governing committee.
Speaker B:And we found that the meeting we had at the governing committee in Coventry last Saturday was a really, really good debate with really strong opinions on both sides.
Speaker B:There were people like myself and Lynn Barry and Sue Duncan who don't work full time as driving instructors, who felt perhaps not overly qualified to be pushing the conversation either way.
Speaker B:We have people like Fiona Clark Ketrin, who's probably more on the side of the argument.
Speaker B:Chris Andy Lloyd down in Portsmouth, they do the same with the WhatsApp groups.
Speaker B:But then we also had people like Dave Allen in Birmingham who every time he's on what season WhatsApp groups in the West Midlands and he has people on these WhatsApp groups selling driving tests.
Speaker B:I've got 10 driving tests, Wolverhampton, for four weeks on Saturday, charging more than what the price of a driving test should be.
Speaker B:And really angry.
Speaker B:And other people on the governing committee with these opinions as well.
Speaker B:Which is why we came to a solution of, let's just have a blog post from two of you if you're able to do that.
Speaker B:And we put out as a presentation.
Speaker B:The unfortunate thing is it's very long and I don't think anybody's read it.
Speaker B:So you did.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:And thank you for sharing it.
Speaker B:So those were my concerns at the time.
Speaker B:I still have those concerns now.
Speaker B:But yeah, Joe, it's okay to disagree on these things.
Speaker B:It's okay to disagree.
Speaker B:And that's where we are.
Speaker B:I don't know what will happen.
Speaker B:And you said a couple of times, Chris, I guess just to finish that doing something is not always the right option, but sometimes no change has consequences too.
Speaker B:Doing nothing has consequences.
Speaker B:And we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't.
Speaker B:The DVSA said on the.
Speaker B:And I'm cynical at the DVSA as well.
Speaker B:But these options have been put forward for a specific reason.
Speaker B:They are options that require no legislative change.
Speaker B:They're trying to pull the levers that they have control, that they can reach the thing on the new test booking system.
Speaker B:I believe it's up to the Treasury.
Speaker B:It's with the spending review that is kind of being leaked out slowly now and I don't know what will happen with that.
Speaker A:The issue is they've said no change, not us.
Speaker A:That was their statement in there, which is to continue as it is now.
Speaker A:And actually that's not true.
Speaker A:So what it is is that this change is not the change that, that, that we want potentially, but it doesn't mean we're not open to other changes.
Speaker A:So, so the, the, the very no change statement is, which I appreciate I might have made in the first place, is, is, is an issue in itself inside of that, that consultation.
Speaker A:But that's the way that it's been pitched and taken, which is you either take one of these or you get nothing or no, because there's other options.
Speaker A:There are other options in doing it and I think it's really interesting.
Speaker A:So, firstly, the two responses from myself as the DITC have been conflated in that, which is, firstly, we put out a questioning article about, you know, what does it really mean?
Speaker A:And it was phrased, a lot of it was phrased as questioning, saying, you know, what is the outcome going to be?
Speaker A:And then following our conversation, which I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated because it helped me get my thoughts straight.
Speaker A:And by the end of it, the biggest thing for me was that what we're doing in removing instructors from the equation, it's less about the swapping and less about the location, the distance.
Speaker A:I think there are problems with that, which are more about the fact there is not wiggle room in the system for it and there's a little bit of chicken and egg going on.
Speaker A:But the taking instructors out of that equation is putting it in the hands of pupils and the evidence we've got is that they're not making the right choices.
Speaker A:As most instructors know from the phone ringing every day with people saying, I've got a test next week or tomorrow, can you help?
Speaker A:And that there's that step and solution to it.
Speaker A:I acknowledge everything that you said.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I, you know, and I also had, you know, had Dave phone me, phone me from, From Birmingham saying, can we have a chat?
Speaker A:Because I want to know what you're thinking, and various other people that did the same.
Speaker A:More than that, I think, you know, the way I see it, and I'm absolutely biased and I have no, I don't apologize for that in any way, I have massive respect for all of the associations and the work that they do.
Speaker A:You know, I really do.
Speaker A:I think sometimes, and this is kind of where the DITC started, sometimes there needs to be a voice to shout against or to hold people to account slightly to kind of say, you know, to get action happening, because that's what happened with COVID and lockdown.
Speaker A:There was silence for too long.
Speaker A:So, you know, some.
Speaker A:Someone needed to break the silence.
Speaker A:And I've never been good at silence.
Speaker A:We know that.
Speaker A:So, you know, I started that when I just put out a video saying, look, we'll keep you informed, which I think any of the associations could have done, but everyone held their breath at that point.
Speaker A:I've openly criticized that in the past, but I have then praised particularly the njc because I think the NJC really came into its own.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying that because you're in the room.
Speaker A:You know, I think during lockdown, that community spirit that is part of what the NJC represents came through.
Speaker A:That's what Sean, for me particularly, I think, you know, the DIA and MSA had different strengths on that, but that community spirit came through from the njc, and that is part of the industry that I like being a part of.
Speaker A:I don't like people, but I do like persons.
Speaker A:And, you know, I definitely valued that.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:And I always said, you can't turn back time, but I always said, it should have come sooner.
Speaker A:Some things should have come sooner.
Speaker A:I also got to appreciate the difficulties the DBSA face and the way that their hands are tied.
Speaker A:And I learned during that that I don't have to agree with them to support them.
Speaker A:Being there.
Speaker A:Being part of that equation is sometimes what's important, and that's why.
Speaker A:So I think I speak for Ian as well.
Speaker A:I'm a little bit careful when I speak for me and when I speak for the two of us, same as yourself.
Speaker A:So I think I speak for Ian as well in that I think sometimes having an opinion allows other people to voice theirs.
Speaker A:And from the feedback that we've got.
Speaker A:And there's always a bias, and I'm talking to the right.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're the expert on bias in the industry as far as I've said, and.
Speaker A:Sorry, that sounds really negative.
Speaker A:That's not what I meant.
Speaker A:I meant that that's your, you know, your bright coaching area is.
Speaker A:Is looking at identity.
Speaker B:I'm not an expert.
Speaker B:I'm an enthusiastic amateur of most things.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:Is the, you know, I accept the bias and the Facebook or the Social media bias, because that, that is, you know, is Brexit all over, isn't it?
Speaker A:And there's a horrible parallel between the consultation and Brexit.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, I'm very aware of that as well.
Speaker A:The voice seems to be that people are saying, you know, that they are concerned about handing over that, that control to learners, not to the dvsa.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I think the right, I think the right to do that.
Speaker B:I don't think they're right to be concerned.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think they're right to be concerned about that.
Speaker B:And I don't think that would be the way forward for anyone.
Speaker B:But I think it just goes back to that.
Speaker B:Why are these options in the consultation?
Speaker B:These options are in the consultation because the call for evidence, it was suggested or someday it would have been proposed in the call for evidence by driving instructors.
Speaker B:And that's what we saw at the ngc.
Speaker B:I appreciate your words about the ngc and I appreciate all the stuff you do at the DITC as well.
Speaker B:You do have a unique position in the industry that I am occasionally envious of.
Speaker B:It's all good, it's all good.
Speaker B:It's all good.
Speaker B:The most important point is that more driving instructors engage with these calls to evidence and with these surveys.
Speaker B:The line I put on our post was, I can't remember, I'm going to flick it up.
Speaker B:But every time our industry fails to speak up in force, it loses its credibility and its ability to affect change.
Speaker B:Now, if you've been super cynical about that, you might, you can, you do, you do say that they've made.
Speaker B:Potentially made their mind up already.
Speaker B:I don't believe that.
Speaker B:I don't believe that.
Speaker B:I think the DVSA is just scrambling around, desperate for ideas, the same as the rest of us, because they're limited in what they can do without legislation.
Speaker B:I guess the final point is going to feel like another bit of a kick.
Speaker B:And I don't mean it this way, but the option that you're putting forward is the one that is automatically going to get people backing you because you're sticking two fingers up to the DVSA and, or suffering a consultation thing.
Speaker B:So obviously it's going to get the likes.
Speaker B:It's a little bit more difficult to go onto social media and say, hey, guys, let's give them a chance.
Speaker B:You know, you're not going to bomb your engagement figures through that, that stance particularly.
Speaker B:But yeah, that's.
Speaker B:I think that's it.
Speaker B:I think that's it.
Speaker A:I think that, you know, I look forward to the day when I can happily stand there.
Speaker A:And it's possible, you know, we say we've had meetings over the last couple of weeks that, you know, I think really positive.
Speaker A:I always feel like I get let down.
Speaker A:You know, the friend that always says, you know, and it's actually, it's often me because I don't like people.
Speaker A:But anyway, the friend who says, let's go out and do something, and then at the last minute they end up not doing it.
Speaker A:And you can only get away with that so many times before people say, so do I feel like that?
Speaker A:And it might be that I'm too old and cynical now in this industry to, you know, because of that, there's an edge to it.
Speaker A:I try to be incredibly aware of that.
Speaker A:And I, I appreciate it's not what you meant when you said, I jumped on Facebook and had a response.
Speaker A:There was a lot of thought before that response and trying to work it through.
Speaker A:And I hope that that's just as a personal thing.
Speaker A:I hope that's what I kind of stand for is that my reasoning tends to be relatively, it might be biased, but it's still strong that I try to work things through and, you know, yeah, I, I, I'll put my hands up if I speak, speak and then think later.
Speaker A:I always reserve the right to change my mind as anyone who come gets in touch with me.
Speaker A:Having listened to an old episode of the podcast that finds when they say, you said this.
Speaker A:And I went really?
Speaker A:But in the moment in the, you know, the, the environment in which we're in, I, the, the one thing that doesn't, isn't being said outside, and it's possibly that I'm one of the few people that can say it above the parapet enough to be heard, is I am concerned about the fact that, you know, we're, we're, we're constructing a new booking system and removing instructors.
Speaker A:And I, and the new booking system is on.
Speaker A:I know people in it that is a tight budget.
Speaker A:That's not one that a lot of them would touch.
Speaker A:It's not one a lot of them would get out of bed for.
Speaker A:So we're not looking for bells and whistles.
Speaker A:So if we can, you know, cut off some of the branches, that makes it a lot more affordable.
Speaker A:And I, and I get that, you know, say I've got an IT background and I get it doesn't mean it's right for everyone.
Speaker A:Someone suffers.
Speaker A:And so I will just reiterate my biggest point if I want to see what are we 40ish thousand on the register.
Speaker B:42, yeah.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:We'll have 42,000 responses from ADIs then, please.
Speaker A:ADIs and PDIs, please.
Speaker A:PDI's can have an opinion too, because some of them felt they couldn't.
Speaker B:So that's another five and a half thousand PDI's I think on the trainee license.
Speaker A:Can we, can we make a prediction.
Speaker C:Just for fun, how many we'll submit?
Speaker A:What were we, Five and a half thousand last survey Stroke consultation.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:I don't know what that one was, but yeah, that one.
Speaker A:So that was at Christmas.
Speaker B:That was a call for evidence, wasn't it?
Speaker B:That wasn't that for consultation?
Speaker B:I think it was 5 2.
Speaker B:5200 something.
Speaker A:Okay, we get higher or lower or.
Speaker B:I'll go exactly the same.
Speaker C:Let's say higher.
Speaker A:I'm going to back myself having shouted at people to respond and go 7,000.
Speaker C:Okay, let's say higher than 7,000.
Speaker C:7,001.
Speaker C:No, the interesting thing for there.
Speaker C:We're going to potentially talk a little bit later on today about some of the hoo ha we've seen on social media over the past few months.
Speaker C:But what I would just say, anyone that is considering doing anything on social media that disagrees with anyone, listen to that last 20 minutes.
Speaker C:Because that's how you disagree with people, respectfully.
Speaker C:And I quite like that.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:I hesitate to bring up all the podcasts on your show today, but the rest is politics.
Speaker B:Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart.
Speaker B:The catchphrase for their show is agreeing this agreeably, disagreeing, disagreeing, agreeably.
Speaker B:That's what it's all about.
Speaker C:Oh, Chris, you said something.
Speaker C:I want to.
Speaker C:I just want to ask you on.
Speaker C:And maybe this is one of those times where you've said summer and hoped I wouldn't remember it.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:But you said there were other options that could have been in the survey.
Speaker C:What were the other options that could be in the survey that are doable?
Speaker C:Just to clarify, that's my question.
Speaker A:You mean I can't harp back to the fact we should have made it 18 for the driving test right at the beginning?
Speaker A:Listen to Chris.
Speaker A:And then there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker C:Should that be the motto of the industry now?
Speaker C:Listen to Chris.
Speaker C:And then there'll never be another problem.
Speaker A:I'm getting good at knowing when to repeat a phrase over and over again so people remember that I did say it and they chose to ignore it.
Speaker A:And then when you turn around later in, later in the day, you know, months and months later and go, maybe we should have done this.
Speaker A:I find that really frustrating and I don't think that's unfair.
Speaker A:So things that they should do.
Speaker A:I believe there should be a system in place in which the worse that you fail, the longer you have to wait to come back.
Speaker A:Because then people.
Speaker A:That would improve test.
Speaker A:Net test readiness and it would mean the people who are good enough are getting the tests.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker C:Let me pause you.
Speaker C:Let me pause you because whilst I agree with that idea completely, the question I was asking, and maybe I misunderstood what you said was I thought you were saying there are more options available in this survey.
Speaker A:No, there's.
Speaker A:We're not given those options in the survey.
Speaker A:We're told you can.
Speaker A:So I, I do a bit of magic, which is something I've got.
Speaker A:Got in common with Tom Stenson, who always reminds me of.
Speaker A:Of Dynamo anyway, just so I could share that image.
Speaker A:So when you see him, it, it's, you know, you can think it and that's not, you know, that's just magic.
Speaker A:It's all good.
Speaker A:So in magic, there's forcing things on people and sometimes you can have an approach where you think that you're picking out of the options, but actually the outcome was predetermined.
Speaker A:Anything that ever happens on Britain's Got Talent, basically.
Speaker A:So that approach to things is, you know, is what's being offered here.
Speaker A:It's going well, you've got this, this and this to choose from, but we're forcing that because we've got to choose, change, otherwise we're bad people.
Speaker A:And, you know, so therefore there's the offers and you've.
Speaker A:Basically, there's a binary choice going on.
Speaker A:There's two binary choices because you can go with one and not the other, but there's those, you know, do we, don't we?
Speaker A:And that is an illusion of choice.
Speaker A:And that illusion of choice is being done really well.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker A:And as long as, you know that's an illusion of choice, that's fine.
Speaker A:You can enjoy the magic trick, go for it.
Speaker A:And you, you can, you can make a choice inside of those if you, if you want to, because you can choose to go, okay, so if these are the options, which one am I going to choose?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's absolutely fine.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And I think this is where, as the ditc.
Speaker A:We, we really feel is.
Speaker A:Is, you know, the holding people to account moment.
Speaker A:People need to know that they're making that choice to go into there and just be reminded that you don't have to choose for the sake of it.
Speaker A:And you know, not mentioning other podcasts, but I think sometimes it's.
Speaker A:That is the natural approach for.
Speaker A:For instructors to go, well, these are the options we've been given, so we've got to take one of them.
Speaker A:And it's just trying to make sure that people do it for the right reasons.
Speaker A:And if that is your reasoning, and that's what you believe in, fully support you in that.
Speaker A:Because that's the world that I want to live in, the one where you've made an informed choice.
Speaker A:Because that's what we want of our drivers, that we're creating.
Speaker A:Whatever level of work you're doing inside the industry, from, you know, the newbie learners through to the fleet stuff, we want to create thinking drivers as trainers, we want to create thinking driving instructors.
Speaker A:There's not enough of them.
Speaker A:And you do that by being informed and having the information that you need and by challenging stuff so that you get to the point where actually you've worked out what's not right as well as what is right.
Speaker A:And because I rarely miss the opportunity, and it's a story I have told before, so I apologize if you've heard it before, but I was running a course that Lou Walsh came on, and I thought I made the very safe statement of surely all driving instructors want their pupils to be safe.
Speaker A:And in her really frustrating way, Lou said, actually, I want my drivers, my learners, to be able to choose to drive dangerously, because if you haven't got the choice, you're not making the right one.
Speaker A:You're doing what you're told.
Speaker A:So, you know, I think it's the same case.
Speaker A:It's that thing of, that's fine, make your informed decision.
Speaker A:Just make sure it is an informed one.
Speaker A:And, you know, it's too easy not to do.
Speaker A:It's also more easy not to bother filling it in the first place.
Speaker A:So stop being lazy.
Speaker A:Please go and fill in, here's my.
Speaker C:Issue, and I'd be interested in both of your thoughts on this, because I haven't expressed this.
Speaker C:I've let this simmer inside.
Speaker C:I'm just really annoyed.
Speaker C:That's a bloody survey in the first place.
Speaker C:Or a consultation, whatever the crap they're calling it, because why I do not get the relevance of this survey.
Speaker C:And if someone can explain this to me, then please do, because you mentioned it, I think, Chris, the Brexit, we didn't need a vote.
Speaker C:Either someone does it or someone that knows an awful lot more about Brexit than me needs to make that decision.
Speaker C:I do not know the inner workings of the DVSA and what they can and can't do.
Speaker C:I think you mentioned it before, Stuart, where you said you didn't realize there were these changes that they could actually make.
Speaker C:You know, and it's like, I don't know what actual changes they can make and what actual change they can't.
Speaker C:So why are they asking me?
Speaker C:Why are they asking 42,000 of us?
Speaker C:Why not use the data and information and the expertise they've got rather than us?
Speaker C:Now, I'm going to caveat that and say there is a survey.
Speaker C:Fill it in.
Speaker C:I have and I've shared my thoughts on it.
Speaker C:So even though the survey is out there, that I disagree with this survey being out there, I still think that we should be putting it, completing it.
Speaker C:So I don't care who.
Speaker C:Can one of you just tell me if I'm thinking about that incorrectly or not with regards to the fact there shouldn't be a survey like this in the first place.
Speaker B:So I think there has to be a consultation.
Speaker B:I think there has to be a consultation because driving tests are a public service.
Speaker B:And I think, I can't remember who told me about this, but there is something around this consultation that whatever happens with the consultation, they can't implement anything immediately.
Speaker B:If anybody's business is going to be affected by this, you get a chance to put your case forward.
Speaker B:So it has to be open, it has to be.
Speaker B:Has to be democratic.
Speaker B:People have to be allowed to put their views forward.
Speaker B:They have to be able to say to the government, these are reasons why this is not a good idea to happen.
Speaker B:I think it's just politics, it's just government.
Speaker B:And I'm not an expert on any of these kind of things at all.
Speaker B:But this is the way things are done.
Speaker B:And I think there is a little bit of naivety around things like just pay the driving examiners more.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:Do you know, it just doesn't.
Speaker B:Life doesn't work like that.
Speaker B:Life does not work like that, unfortunately.
Speaker B:And just to, I guess just to give a second point like that, the reason there is a consultation is that because everybody has been screaming at the DVSA to do something, they're doing something.
Speaker C:That's actually the point I made.
Speaker C:Sorry, Chris, I'll just say this, I'll let you jump in.
Speaker C:I think I.
Speaker C:Because I couldn't attend the NJC meeting the weekend, I had an interesting experiment with some stairs.
Speaker C:Turns out don't try and do ballet when you turn around on the stairs.
Speaker C:Doesn't work.
Speaker C:At least if you're not qualified.
Speaker C:There's a lesson in there somewhere.
Speaker C:But that's something I expressed.
Speaker C:I think that this is where I've got a bit of sympathy with the fill of dsa, genuine sympathy.
Speaker C:And it's unlike me to say that, because if you look at the past year and what people have been shouting about more and more, so we had so many driving instructors complaining about the bots and complain about other instructors booking up tests and reselling them and every convention or expo or whatever's the dvsa, I hear instructors asking the DVSA that question.
Speaker C:Then the public get wind of it and we see all over social media now, whenever anyone said the public are blaming either bots or driving instructors or whatever they're tagging it like, and now it's in, in, in like mainstream media.
Speaker C:We've seen it on BBC news and websites and stuff.
Speaker C:Again, blaming bots and whether that is driving interest or whatever, we can see how that's all labeled together.
Speaker C:And this is where I've got a bit of simply for the.
Speaker C:For the dvsa, because they're now turning around and going, well, actually, if everyone's complaining about this one thing and we can actually change this one thing, maybe this is the thing we change.
Speaker C:So I'm not saying I agree with that.
Speaker C:I'm saying that's where I've got a simplified.
Speaker C:Because they're being pillared by that and.
Speaker C:And then that's the thing they're doing now, getting pillared about that, including by me just saying.
Speaker C:But the reason I made that comment so long is because I can see how much it's annoying Chris, because he's desperate to say words.
Speaker A:You're being naive.
Speaker C:Nice.
Speaker C:That's the word, I think.
Speaker A:No, you're assuming that everyone's got good intentions.
Speaker C:I'm not assuming anyone's got good intentions.
Speaker C:That's the last thing I do want.
Speaker A:So let's say that you just say, look, just make the changes, just do it.
Speaker A:You're assuming that's for the good and the good of everybody and not the good of the individual.
Speaker A:Look at how many politicians you would trust with your own decisions.
Speaker A:It's that thing, those checks and balances have to be there because firstly, they don't necessarily know the right answer.
Speaker A:They would if they listened, but they don't necessarily know the right answer and they don't know it's not going to be the right answer for everybody.
Speaker A:So making a change, fiddling with it just to see if it works, assumes the good intentions of the person who's doing that?
Speaker A:And that's not to say that anybody at the DVSA hasn't got good intentions because individually I think they're all doing an amazing job and they are all trying really hard inside the constraints.
Speaker A:However, you then have to also take into account that the best position from a political perspective, and you know, this isn't about the individuals, this is about the government as a machine is not moving, is not developing something.
Speaker A:This is why I couldn't work for civil service.
Speaker A:Because most of the time you're working towards something that you know is never going to happen.
Speaker A:Because there will be a change that happens along the way to prevent it from actually evolving into tangible change.
Speaker A:Because the Secretary for Transport will change or the government will change.
Speaker A:And you talk to people at dvsa, some of them came in under Conservative, some of them came in under labor and they've seen those switches and they've got different perspectives because of it.
Speaker A:And they've got to be the, the stable force for the sake of the country inside of that.
Speaker A:And being stable is about not having change.
Speaker A:And the problem is that there is a massive clash between what is most successful in nature, which is the most flexible element in any system is the most successful and actually stability, which involves not being flexible and not changing and that balance between them.
Speaker A:But we know which one made the dinosaurs extinct.
Speaker A:But we are here for butter moment.
Speaker A:But the country hopefully is here for a much longer period of time.
Speaker A:So that difference is incredibly important.
Speaker A:You've got to ask those questions, you've got to allow those challenges.
Speaker A:Hopefully they've got to listen to the feedback as well.
Speaker A:I'm under no illusions that chances are the same thing's going to happen because there's other wheels at play, other pressures at play of what's going on and why and everything.
Speaker A:And it's fine.
Speaker A:We'll survive.
Speaker A:Whatever the outcomes of those consultations, we will survive.
Speaker A:But I do think that instructors resourcefulness and coping strategies have been underappreciated in the benefits that other people have taken credit for.
Speaker A:That some of those movements forward have actually not been anything to do with the change at the DBSA end of things.
Speaker A:It's been the resourceful adaptiveness of the entrepreneurial, self employed spirit.
Speaker A:That means that, you know what, we've got to get up and deal with whatever cards we've got dealt that day and we'll continue to do so.
Speaker A:So that's fine.
Speaker A:You know, despite whatever changes are made, it's fine, we'll go through it's not going to end the world.
Speaker A:But I think, therefore we've got to take it seriously so that we get the best version of things as possible.
Speaker B:Can I just come back in that.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I disagree again, the bit at the start coming back at Terry about, you know, good reasons.
Speaker B:I don't think that's a fair representation of why government departments do things.
Speaker B:Government departments do things to make things work.
Speaker B:I believe that people go into government to make things better, People go into politics to make things better.
Speaker B:I actually believe that people become.
Speaker B:Get involved with national associations to make things better.
Speaker B:And I appreciate what you said earlier on about where the cynicism comes from.
Speaker B:I don't have cynicism.
Speaker B:I have immense frustration.
Speaker B:But I have to believe that there are people somewhere who want to make things better, who want us to stop shouting at them, who want the general public to stop shouting at them.
Speaker B:That the Secretary of State definitely wants people to stop asking MPs to stop asking questions about this in the House of Commons.
Speaker B:That the Secretary of State for Transport wants to stop being questioned by whoever is the Chief of Staff for Keira Starmer at the moment on why is this still on BBC News?
Speaker B:Governments do care about news cycles.
Speaker B:Governments do pay attention to these things and their job is to make them go away.
Speaker B:The role of politicians is to make them go away.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean it's easy.
Speaker B:But if you believe in politics as a force for good, and I completely appreciate that many people don't, then you have to believe that the people who work in these positions believe in some way what they're doing.
Speaker B:And I hold my hand up to accusations of naivety as well.
Speaker B:So I can write that.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker A:But they.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:The checks and balances are there.
Speaker A:Are there to prevent the people who aren't there for the good.
Speaker A:And most are.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:If you get a chance.
Speaker A:Black Mirror, the Waldo episode.
Speaker A:Be aware there's some challenging stuff in it that, you know, is a lot of bad language.
Speaker A:But that, you know, I think there's those things of what happens if.
Speaker A:And then a couple of episodes after that.
Speaker A:This was filmed seven years ago, the AI episode, which seven years ago, AI was not the thing it is now.
Speaker A:But it's scary how accurate those things are.
Speaker A:That that's not saying they will happen.
Speaker A:That's not saying we're heading towards a dystopian future.
Speaker A:It's saying the checks and balances are there to prevent that from happening.
Speaker A:And things getting, you know, and political will is, you know, we only have to look back to Nazi Germany for the fact that that came from a, you know, an initial trigger because of a political will from the people.
Speaker A:So those, those.
Speaker A:What I'm saying is those checks and balances are really important in case there is someone.
Speaker A:Not what.
Speaker A:But hopefully they are.
Speaker A:But we, we, we can't not have as.
Speaker A:As Terry was suggesting.
Speaker A:We can't have.
Speaker A:Sorry, we can't have someone just go in and flick a switch to see what happens because they think it's the best thing.
Speaker C:Because legally not the suggestion I made at all.
Speaker C:I did not even make a suggestion.
Speaker C:The point I made was that I've got an element of sympathy for the DVSA because they've been pillared and have they potentially now just gone.
Speaker C:We don't want to be pilled anymore.
Speaker C:Can we do this?
Speaker C:There was not a suggestion there.
Speaker A:You said that.
Speaker A:I believe you said that.
Speaker A:You know, you don't know why there needs to be a consultation.
Speaker A:They should just get on and do it.
Speaker C:It's not a consultation with a broader public.
Speaker C:And then Stuart corrected me and said, were we democratic?
Speaker C:Yeah, that's a valid point.
Speaker C:I think there definitely needs to be a consultation.
Speaker C:But this doesn't feel like a consultation to me.
Speaker C:This was my point.
Speaker C:It feels like they've asked what, six questions that have got closed options and it's not very broad and as you say, it's very limited.
Speaker C:You know, we're not necessarily, we're not getting anything from this with driving instructors.
Speaker C:The public might gain some access to books and more tests, but then not might use it properly.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:And again, this just semantics potentially.
Speaker C:But when we're talking a consultation, I want someone to ask me questions, open questions I can then answer, not just go, these are the four choices we're giving you.
Speaker C:And by the way, you can fill in this little box that will pretend to listen to.
Speaker C:Because let's be honest, people listen to this podcast, but how many people actually go and do some off the back of it?
Speaker C:You know, easy to listen to people not make a response.
Speaker C:But just on the naivety bit, I do think there's a difference between being naive and being hopeful and having belief.
Speaker C:I've.
Speaker C:I've got a date tonight.
Speaker C:I have to believe that she's not a serial killer.
Speaker C:I have to believe that, right?
Speaker C:Because I don't think I'm naive.
Speaker C:Naivety is the assumption that she's not a serial killer.
Speaker C:Although there is a story that I might say both when I finished wrapping up, but I think there's a difference between that.
Speaker C:But I don't want to be the podcast source that goes, I've said my bit, now we're stopping.
Speaker C:But I've said my bit, now we're stopping because I want to move on.
Speaker C:I think we've covered done that to death.
Speaker C:I don't think we need to get into that anymore because I do want to talk a little bit about social media because there's been a bit of a hoo ha and not just over the past week, but over the past six months.
Speaker C:I can remember on the Green Room with you guys and Tom Stenson saying that what it feels like over the past six months, Keep in mind I said this in December.
Speaker C:What it feels like over the past six months is that there's less collaboration.
Speaker C:There's, there's online, there's all this stuff coming out and people are promoting each other a bit, but they're not really connecting.
Speaker C:There's not really collaboration.
Speaker C:It feels like there's more head butting going on.
Speaker C:And it felt like that's got worse and worse and worse throughout this year.
Speaker C:And again, I'm not even going to name the stuff that's gone on because I think if you start naming stuff, you miss other stuff.
Speaker C:And this doesn't get mentioned, it takes out of context.
Speaker C:I'm not going to name anything.
Speaker C:And it's not just one point, as I said, it's the stuff that's been going on for a year or so.
Speaker C:But I thought it would be worth us talking a little bit about how we deal with some of the crap that goes on on social media because we've all faced it and there's a lot of people out there that are scared of talking on social media.
Speaker C:They're scared of asking questions.
Speaker C:Because they ask a question, they see the response they get.
Speaker C:They're scared of posting, they're scared of putting their face on social media, this stuff.
Speaker C:And if I'm wrong, then please tell me you guys, when I throw it over to you.
Speaker C:But I don't think any of us particularly want to be on social media, as in going, look at me, I'm this person talking about this thing.
Speaker C:I think we do it because we want to help the industry and the way we do that is by putting our face on things.
Speaker C:So yeah, I'll come to you first on this, Stuart, what are your thoughts on this whole thing and how we can your experience with social media and handling the negativity and stuff.
Speaker B:So I think there's something about the industry when you do something other than teach learners as soon as you do something other than teach learners, you're putting yourself out there as a legitimate target.
Speaker B:Maybe that may be a bit strong.
Speaker B:I might come back and change that lot in a minute.
Speaker B:Once I hear what I say, I don't know what I'm going to say in terms of what people think of you in the industry.
Speaker B:People judge you on what you do and as soon as you put yourself out there in social media, people start forming opinions on you.
Speaker B:So I run a driving school, okay?
Speaker B:I get people on, I help people launch the careers once they pass the Part 3 test and they come on a franchise with my driving, so I'm a franchise.
Speaker B:I'm also a training company.
Speaker B:So I market myself and my services and my courses on Facebook and I take money off hardworking driving instructors.
Speaker B:I'm also the chairman of a national association and nobody likes national associations.
Speaker B:I must be the most unpopular person in Scotland in terms of driving instructors.
Speaker B:But I put myself out there because I believe that the work that I want to do in this industry is just worth any kind of nonsense that comes with it.
Speaker B:But I think that anyone who thinks that they have training to sell and all of us on this call, sell, sell things to driving instructors.
Speaker B:And with that comes a little bit of a spotlight.
Speaker B:I guess maybe the spotlight is a better word than a target if I can change that up.
Speaker B:And that just to me that's part of the job.
Speaker B:That's part of the job.
Speaker B:I don't think it's any different than before social media or before computers.
Speaker B:And there's a couple of, I don't know, couple of restaurants on a high street somewhere and one of the restaurants decides to go all garish and have people handing out flyers to try and entice people in and special offers and certain uniforms for the people they have handing out.
Speaker B:It's just business, it's marketing and how people choose to do that is going to attract attention and it's going to attract judgment.
Speaker B:It's a social media equivalent of that.
Speaker B:To flip it to the other side, I guess if you are a business on social media, especially in our industry and our industry to a large extent revolves around coaching now, which is brilliant and client centered and emotional intelligence.
Speaker B:I think we all have to have a very, very high level of self awareness about what messages we are sending out about our brands.
Speaker B:Because every time we post something on social media we're communicating with lots of different people.
Speaker B:And it's very tempting to think that you're only communicating to the people who like you.
Speaker B:And unfortunately you're not only communicating with the people who like you, you're communicating with people who have already decided that they don't like you.
Speaker B:And you're also communicating with people who have never heard of you before.
Speaker B:And just like meeting you on the street, they will make their minds up about you in seven seconds or the first paragraph of a social media post.
Speaker B:And I think that level of self awareness is very, very important for any business on Facebook in particular because it is difficult, it is challenging.
Speaker B:You asked for a personal experience.
Speaker B:I was once outed.
Speaker B:Well, not outed.
Speaker B:That's the wrong word.
Speaker B:That's very much the wrong word.
Speaker B:I was punched down, I guess on a very, very well known and well respected industry leaders newsletter that went out to his 10,000 strong mailing list before anyone knew how it was in this industry outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Speaker B:And that was really tough.
Speaker B:I took that very, very personally and I had no right of response to any of that.
Speaker B:I tried my best.
Speaker B:I responded on Facebook to the small following that I had at that time.
Speaker B:But I was upset.
Speaker B:I was pissed off.
Speaker B:I was pissed off as you guys will have been previously.
Speaker B:But on reflection, after many, many years, I attract that level of not, not deliberately, but by doing what I do, I'm going to attract attention and I need to be resilient to be able to handle that because it's a price worth paying for the difference I want to make.
Speaker C:I learned some a couple of years ago as a result of a complete, I'm going to say mistake.
Speaker C:It wasn't a mistake, it was me being a dick.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:There was a recording I did for my membership before it got big and I won't name them, but I said I will never use this company again.
Speaker C:I won't name the company.
Speaker C:But on the recording I said I will never use this company.
Speaker C:And I just kind of said it flippantly.
Speaker C:I didn't expand on why.
Speaker C:I just said this and then kind of carried on.
Speaker C:So of course you can imagine the messages I got.
Speaker C:Why won't you use this company?
Speaker C:And it clicked for me straight away.
Speaker C:I've got some kind of influence here and I could damage someone's business by saying that.
Speaker C:Now, thankfully that was way back when the membership was quite small.
Speaker C:It wasn't a public thing.
Speaker C:I did because I didn't intend to damage the business.
Speaker C:I just made a comment and I learned from that pretty quick, like, oh crap, I don't want to ever intentionally, I don't want to accidentally damage someone's business.
Speaker C:But it's also interesting the like.
Speaker C:This week I've put some, I think some really good social media content up.
Speaker C:I really believe that the single most popular one I've done was a meme about the dvsa, which I checked with both for you actually, as to whether you felt it was appropriate for me to post.
Speaker C:So whether you were saying yeah, because you thought it was, oh yeah, because you want me to get in trouble, I don't know.
Speaker B:But it saved us doing it.
Speaker C:But that's the thing that's been the single most popular.
Speaker C:You can go out and put all this awesome, really good stuff out, whether it's this podcast or whatever it is you might do.
Speaker C:You will always get noted for somewhat that's been not as wise or not as clever.
Speaker C:But Chris, what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker A:I had the baptism of fire of starting the first Facebook group for driving instructors.
Speaker A:So when Facebook groups came along, and that was in the days that social and media hit each other head on and suddenly lives, you know, everyone was sharing what they were having for dinner and people were still trying to figure it out and they weren't realizing that human beings were at the other side of that screen because they weren't used to it.
Speaker A:I think some of them now know that there's human beings the other side of that screen and do it deliberately.
Speaker A:But other people forget, you know, when there's been companies or individuals that have ended up having problems.
Speaker A:I can think of three occasions when we've had these conversations on the green room where we've stopped and said we need to remember that there's a human being behind that company, behind that face, and it's the same behind a profile, behind whatever.
Speaker A:Firstly, I learned very early on I'm really lucky.
Speaker A:I have a way of engaging via social media that seems to work.
Speaker A:And I can start an argument 100%, but I can also often end an argument by articulating it in that way.
Speaker A:I've learned not to start them more.
Speaker A:You wouldn't know that looking at recent events, but I have learned not to start them all.
Speaker A:But there's other people that don't have that.
Speaker A:I feel that, you know, we have IQ and eq.
Speaker A:I feel there needs to be an SQ of some kind of like, you know, that understanding of social media as a separate approach because we're not looking at a human being and therefore those other things don't always step in.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:I've been involved in some massive fallouts, some that I deserve to be involved in and some that I got Caught up in.
Speaker A:As the person who came along and tried to solve some problems.
Speaker A:You end up being the villain of the piece through no fault of your own.
Speaker A:And I, I don't want to be here.
Speaker A:I don't want to be.
Speaker A:I don't have a desire to be whatever.
Speaker A:I don't even know what it is.
Speaker A:I know Stuart listed all of his hats.
Speaker A:I have the same issue.
Speaker A:And, you know, people come around the room to me and saying, what.
Speaker A:Who are you?
Speaker A:What are you doing?
Speaker A:I haven't got a blooming clue and I don't know why.
Speaker A:I don't, I don't.
Speaker A:There's not a plan behind it.
Speaker A:I'm, I'm not, you know, a professional spokesperson or whatever.
Speaker A:Influencer wasn't a thing when I started doing this.
Speaker A:Most people decided that I was.
Speaker A:Because we were behind the screen.
Speaker A:I was 60 plus and I went to bed with the highway code because there was a Persona that I shared, you know, that was quite specific to facts and things.
Speaker A:A pedant, if you like.
Speaker A:And those that know me know that, yeah, I am, but that's not the point.
Speaker A:There's other facets to me as well.
Speaker A:And I've met some of those people that I have massive rows with and we've got on really well.
Speaker A:And some of the people that I've had massive routes with have ended up being really good friends behind the scene.
Speaker A:But publicly, people think we hate each other.
Speaker A:The awesome Liz Sheridan who is no longer with us, you know, she, she was, she was a really good friend of mine and we used to exchange messages and everything else, but publicly everyone thought she absolutely hated me and she kept that going quite happily.
Speaker A:But when people were, you know, abusing me behind the scenes because they were in a room that I wasn't allowed in, she'd let me know what was going on and what was happening and everything else.
Speaker A:And, you know, it is.
Speaker A:I think there's those horrible sides to social media.
Speaker A:It's 247 as well.
Speaker A:You can't get away from it.
Speaker A:And it's the, the forget us, right?
Speaker A:Most of us are old enough and ugly enough that we, we can, we can turn things off.
Speaker A:It often goes too far before we realize that we can or.
Speaker A:And we shouldn't have to step away from social media, but sometimes it's the best thing we can do.
Speaker A:I feel for the kids more than anything because if we're suffering when it is their life, you wonder, how do they get away?
Speaker A:If I had an issue with someone at school, and again, I tended to Have a way of talking myself in and out of problems.
Speaker A:So I was a gray person who didn't have a particular friendship group, but most people I got on with all right.
Speaker A:The, you know, if I had a problem, I could leave it at school in a job where I was, you know, if I, if I have a fallout with someone in the job that I'm doing at the moment, it's me that's worrying because I do disagree with myself regularly.
Speaker A:I agree.
Speaker A:Half of me agrees with Stuart 100% and the other half totally disagrees.
Speaker A:So, you know, I think that there's that thing of, well, if you're in a work environment, you can leave it at work.
Speaker A:You might dread going in the next day, but at least you can go home and have that space.
Speaker A:We are driving instructors in a way that with a lot of us, not everyone, there's some people it's just a job and they leave it at work, but the majority, you cut us through the middle and, you know, it says Adi.
Speaker A:I always say I've got green blood because I think and breathe driving instructor first.
Speaker A:That's always my response.
Speaker A:And, you know, therefore, I've immersed myself inside of it and it, not just myself, I've taken others down with me.
Speaker A:My, my other half is more versed on the driving instructor world than, than, you know, most driving instructors.
Speaker A:My kids, the same thing.
Speaker A:They, they see it and they hear it and they, they'll, you know, they, they listen in, they hear me recording videos or teaching theory or whatever it is.
Speaker A:They're very in tune with it because.
Speaker A:And they, they came out on the big learner relay with us.
Speaker A:You know, they, they were born off the relay, one of them more than they know.
Speaker A:And the, you know, it's so important that it does take over.
Speaker A:So A, you take it personally, but B, you come back fighting.
Speaker A:And that means that you're closer to the edge of snapping and breaking than you realize because you put up with it.
Speaker A:Put up with it, put up with it.
Speaker A:And today was Adi walk back day.
Speaker A:Second Tuesday of the month.
Speaker A:I accept other places, certain places in the country do other days, and that's absolutely fine with me.
Speaker A:But, you know, officially second Tuesday of the month, there were four of us out in the woods in my area, notably, and it's different in different areas of the country depending on who's taken the reins, but notably where I am, that there's a big male dominance in who comes along and the regulars.
Speaker A:And it was very much notable that we started the walk talking shop and Then it got to problem pupils and then it got to our problems and we acknowledged between us, we're really rubbish as blokes, particularly talking emotion.
Speaker A:And we, you know, we covered everything on that loop today through to like hardcore depression and, you know, suicidal thoughts and everything else.
Speaker A:The whole thing when you're doing that and you are a sole person sat in front of a screen or sat in a car with the pretend people that come along that are your pupils, you know, that's a separate thing.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And it's just you.
Speaker A:And then you have to go home and put a front on, in front of family or, you know, the people that you deal with and everything else.
Speaker A:And I say have to because it's in your makeup, it's who you are as much as you won't, you know, and you want to shout and scream and you can't.
Speaker A:And then we know, and I'm talking absolutely personally on this, that the one time that you feel strongly enough, no, the one time you feel strong enough to say help, that if you say that to a gp, they hand you a phone number and say give them a call.
Speaker A:That's wrong.
Speaker A:So many people don't get to that point of saying help.
Speaker A:And that's for me, that's what social media should be about.
Speaker A:It should be about the community.
Speaker A:It should be about all of those things of us all working together and being able to disagree like we have here, not like they have on social media, whoever they are.
Speaker A:You know, in the broad, you see it, all the trolls, all the arguments, the nastiness.
Speaker A:And that's the post that I put out over the last couple of weeks.
Speaker A:I haven't had any of that nastiness on there.
Speaker A:There's people disagreeing, right, rightly or wrongly, but they, they've done it in, in a way that there's been very thought out points and it's moved away from that shouting and screaming and throwing stones that we're getting with the DVSA because we've opened a conversation.
Speaker A:So I'm going to go back from that and say a come on the walk backs because.
Speaker A:And if you haven't got one locally, start one.
Speaker A:It only takes one of you to start it, preferably two, because talking to your.
Speaker A:Talking to yourself in the woods is weird.
Speaker A:The second thing is go and fill in the blooming survey while you're waiting for someone to turn up in the woods so that you do that.
Speaker A:And the third thing is think about the human being, the other side of things because they might be that might be the one occasion that they need to say help, and you need to be listening.
Speaker C:The other thing I'll just chip in with here is this is something I'm guilty of.
Speaker C:I'll hold my hands up to this.
Speaker C:I'm trying to get better, and I am getting better, but I am somewhat.
Speaker C:I'm poorer.
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker C:I'll see a post.
Speaker C:Let's say you put a post up, Chris, talking about, I don't know, something.
Speaker C:A bad driving instructor would do this.
Speaker C:My brain will go, oh, I did that three years ago.
Speaker C:And start thinking I'm a bad driving instructor.
Speaker C:Or I'll see you talk about an experience you've had with someone that was negative.
Speaker C:And I'm going, was that me?
Speaker C:Is he talking about me there?
Speaker C:And I'm sure I'm not the only person that thinks this.
Speaker C:I know a lot of people do this, but it's easy to see something being written and assume it's about you, when often it might just be like, I know I do this sometimes where I'll put a post up and the reason I do it is that comes in my memories 12 months later to remind me.
Speaker C:But I've had people come to me before and say, was that post?
Speaker C:I'm like, no, no, I promise it wasn't.
Speaker C:You know, so.
Speaker C:And even.
Speaker C:Even with the dvsa, because I know I felt this before.
Speaker C:When you get an email from the DVSA that's complaining about something about driving instructors, it's easy to think they're complaining about you.
Speaker C:They're not.
Speaker C:It's just you've received the email because they send it to all of us.
Speaker C:And it's not aimed at that individual.
Speaker C:It's aimed at the people that it's.
Speaker C:It's aimed at.
Speaker C:So I think if you're on social media and you see some of this stuff, maybe just accept that there's a damn good chance it's not aimed at you.
Speaker C:And also, if it is aimed at you, how much do you care at the grand scheme of things?
Speaker C:You know, when you get to your deathbed, you look back and go, oh, that one person said that one thing that one time.
Speaker C:I mean, to be fair, I might, but whatever.
Speaker B:Anyway, my version of that.
Speaker B:Just defend my version of that.
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker B:Apparently, since taking on the show at the ngc, nobody in the country is allowed to criticize our national association without me getting angry about it.
Speaker B:And we're very protective of all national associations, even the ditc, Chris.
Speaker B:Because, yeah, that's.
Speaker B:It's easy to throw stones at Associations, isn't it?
Speaker B:And just something else you made me think about there, Chris, talking about SQ and the people buying the business.
Speaker B:It's actually very much like driving, isn't it?
Speaker B:The way we act in a car is very, very different to the way we act when we, you know, somebody brushes into us when they're walking down the street.
Speaker B:It just made me think a little bit like that we wouldn't.
Speaker B:Somebody wrote a blog for the ngc.
Speaker B:We put it up on the website.
Speaker B:Somebody spent a lot of time writing a blog post about a topic related to driving and education.
Speaker B:And then people are on there attacking the output of somebody who's volunteered their time, international association and volunteered to write something that is of interest to people.
Speaker B:What's the point?
Speaker B:What's the point?
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker B:Anyway, that's my rant.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker C:No, I love that because I get.
Speaker C:I don't want to dwell on this, but I get that with a podcast, someone will listen to a 90 minute podcast and pull me up on one thing.
Speaker C:What about the other 1 hour, 28 minutes?
Speaker C:Did you like that?
Speaker C:And they'll say, yeah, why didn't you mention that bit then?
Speaker C:Why are you just mentioning the one they gave?
Speaker C:But Chris, what's that you want to say?
Speaker C:But I'm going to introduce it by saying Stuart called the DITC an association.
Speaker A:I believe I'm just going to ignore that bit.
Speaker A:No, just, just as a little Easter egg so that people can go and have a look.
Speaker A:The most recent video from the DITC that we recorded before we went to the DVSA meeting this week, that there's a slight error in the captions on there, which is amusing.
Speaker A:It's a Freudian slit.
Speaker A:The number of people that.
Speaker A:That's what they commented on.
Speaker A:The one word, not the other 99 of stuff is, Is, you know, is very telling of.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's often our approach, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's that thing.
Speaker A:So, yeah, go and check that out.
Speaker A:There's a nice little Easter egg in there.
Speaker A:I hope you find it funny.
Speaker B:I was, I was in Bristol with Chris yesterday as well when I was desperate to find a DVSA logo somewhere behind me so I could take a selfie to say, just enjoying my tea and biscuits with the dvsa.
Speaker A:We've got Ian and myself standing, posing outside.
Speaker A:We've got that picture we were going to use.
Speaker B:That's what I wanted.
Speaker B:Cozying up with the dvsa.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I will post the other one, which is the notice that they have above the toilet, which was Even more interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I'll put those out later.
Speaker C: In: Speaker C:I used to get everyone that come on will tell me their ultimate driving song.
Speaker C:And then as with a lot of stuff that I do, I forgot about it.
Speaker C:So I'm bringing that back.
Speaker C:So there is an instructor podcast playlist.
Speaker C:I'll be in the show notes, I'll share it on social media, but I'm going to ask both Chris and Stewart to give me a song.
Speaker C:It doesn't have to be the ultimate driving song, just any song that you might listen to in the car that you like.
Speaker C:Stuart, what's yours?
Speaker B:So this is going to split the crowd.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I have quite a bizarre taste in music.
Speaker B:I've not gone with Radiohead, but it's almost as weird.
Speaker B:I've gone with Mogwai.
Speaker B:You guys familiar with Mogwai?
Speaker B:No, as in the gremlins little thing.
Speaker B:So Mogwai are a band from Glasgow and because of all the traveling that I tend to do these days, they have a song called Yes, I Am a Long Way From Home.
Speaker B:Not for the Faint Hearted, there are no lyrics at all.
Speaker B:But it's a musical piece.
Speaker B:Lots of load guitars and then lots of very quiet guitars and then lots of loud guitars.
Speaker B:Again, that's the thing I like.
Speaker C:Chris, what's yours?
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:I probably totally the opposite to that, which is, you know, not unexpected.
Speaker A:I'm yours, Jason Mraz.
Speaker A:Because firstly, you cannot have a bad day listening to that song if you know, if you're feeling down.
Speaker A:It's just one of those happy skippy songs.
Speaker A:But it's my nearly one year old's favorite song.
Speaker A:If I start singing it, she starts dancing.
Speaker A:So I can't not have that as the song that will make me smile and make me happy.
Speaker C:So yeah, I don't know either though.
Speaker C:So look forward to discovering them.
Speaker C:Chris, remind people where they can find you if they want more.
Speaker C:Chris.
Speaker C:Goodness.
Speaker A:And I don't know anymore.
Speaker A:They can find me via the DITC.
Speaker A:The ditc.co.uk they can find me via Theorytest explained.
Speaker A:Theorytestexplained.co.uk or you can find me, you know, trying not to offend people on Facebook.
Speaker C:And Stuart, where can people find the protector of the associations?
Speaker B:The protectors of the associations.
Speaker B:Fantastic.
Speaker B:You can find me at the ADI NGC or upbrightcoaches.
Speaker B:We have a new professional diploma launching in a couple of weeks at the end of June.
Speaker B:We still have a couple of places.
Speaker C:Left on that and all the links from everything we spoke about today will be in the crap.
Speaker C:What do I call it?
Speaker C:The Episode Workbook.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker C:They will be in the episode workbook.
Speaker C:So make sure you subscribe to the email list to get those every month or every time we do an episode, which I said will be monthly, but this will be the first of two this month.
Speaker C:So yes, go and check that out and you can find out more@www.instructureorpodcast.com.
Speaker C:but big thank you for joining me today, guys.
Speaker C:Kind of threw this together a little bit, short notice.
Speaker C:And yeah, thank you for joining me.
Speaker C:And what do I say?
Speaker C:Keep raising standards and driving instructors towards Vision Zero.
Speaker A:The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.
