Thinking Time: The Secret Sauce for Successful Instructors!
Today, we're diving into a fun episode dissection with business guru, Dino Tartaglia! We're all about asking better questions and figuring out how to charge what we're truly worth. You know, it’s not just about knowing the clutch from the brake pedal; it’s about understanding what our students really want: confidence, freedom, and maybe a little less stalling at traffic lights!
So, whether you're a driving instructor or just someone looking to level up in business, we’re here to help you break it down into bite-sized pieces that actually make sense. Plus, we’ll chat about why thinking time is your new best friend for making those big decisions. Grab your headphones, kick back, and let’s get ready to rev up those engines of thought!
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Takeaways:
- This episode dives into the power of asking better questions to unlock deeper insights and enhance your teaching methods as a driving instructor.
- We explore the importance of 'thinking time'—setting aside moments to reflect is crucial for personal and business growth in the driving school industry.
- Pricing is more than just numbers; it’s about the value you provide to your students and how you reassure them of their journey toward becoming confident drivers.
- You don't need to cater to everyone! Focus on building a business around the students you enjoy teaching and those who align with your values.
- The conversation highlights that many people don't realize the true benefits of what they're seeking, like mastering driving techniques, which is often a stepping stone to greater personal development.
- Lastly, remember, investing in your own growth and learning is key—your improvement translates to better support for your students and a thriving driving school.
Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker B:About what drives them.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.
Speaker B:This is a show where we help you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better driving school.
Speaker B:As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook.
Speaker B:I'm delighted to be here, but even more delighted that you have chosen to listen, because today I'm bringing you something a little different.
Speaker B:This is a public release of one of my premium membership exclusive episodes.
Speaker B:Now, this is an episode that I like to call an episode dissection.
Speaker B:These are where I go back and revisit some of the past conversations with some of my favorite guests, breaking down the key lessons and looking at how they can help you improve both as an instructor and as a business owner.
Speaker B:Now, in this one, I was joined by Dino Tartaglia, a brilliant business mind who's been a huge influence on me over the last few years.
Speaker B:And we dig into thinking time, asking better questions, pricing with confidence, and building a business around the people that you want to work with.
Speaker B:Now, normally this type of episode is only available to premium members, so if you enjoy it, you might want to check out the membership for more episodes like this, plus expert sessions, videos, and all kinds of practical resources.
Speaker B:So to check that out, you can find out more on my website, which is the instructorpodcast.com or you can go direct and sign up there at patreon.com forward/inventor.
Speaker B:They can find links for all this stuff in the show notes, but for now, let's get stuck into the show.
Speaker B:So welcome to another episode dissection.
Speaker B:This is a show where we tackle a former recording and I'm delighted to have the fabulous Dino Tartali with me today.
Speaker B:How we doing, Dino?
Speaker A:Doing all right, man.
Speaker A:Doing all right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm in Porto over in Portugal where I live now and the sun is shining and life is good.
Speaker B:We've got sunshine in here as well today.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker A:Is it 22 degrees though?
Speaker B:No, still slightly jealous, but don't take it all away from me.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B: first on the show back in, in: Speaker B:And do you know what, it's just been cracking being in your world for the past five years.
Speaker B:You've had such a positive influence on me.
Speaker B:You've changed the way I think about a lot of stuff.
Speaker B:I don't want to say my outlook because I don't think you ever necessarily try and influence people's outlook, but you influence the way they come to that outlook.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So, yes, it's just been an absolute pleasure being in and around you for the past five years.
Speaker A:Oh, thanks for that, man.
Speaker A:And yeah, brought up some happy memories of that Dan.
Speaker A:Dan's a good friend, he's a cracking guy and he asked me to speak at that event in Brighton and I had to come up with something that was just different.
Speaker A:So what we talked about, if you remember, was asking better questions, which is a theme that Simon, who's the other half of the business and I bang on about.
Speaker A:Because it's something that in high level masterminds, they do this all the time.
Speaker A:So if you're paying 20, 50, $100,000 a year over stateside mainly, then this is the conversation.
Speaker A:But at a level where, yeah, you might be following a coach, paying a couple of grand or something like that, or joining a so called mastermind in the uk, don't get me started about that.
Speaker A:But these things that aren't really masterminds, it doesn't come up.
Speaker A:You learn stuff and you absorb information, but you don't change how you think, at least not by design.
Speaker A:And for us that's critical.
Speaker B:Like, and you know what, they're asking better questions.
Speaker B:It's something we talk about a lot as instructors.
Speaker B:You know, when we talk working with us pupils, it's like we need to ask better questions.
Speaker B:And so we, a lot of us now used to be this way, guilty of asking a question that we know the answer to.
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, and, and sometimes we need to do that because we need to test knowledge or whatever.
Speaker B:But we, the, the best questions are the ones that we don't know the answer to because then we find out so much more from that person.
Speaker B:But you know, maybe that's, maybe that's another topic for another conversation, I think.
Speaker A:Because yeah, the conversation, it's his own.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:One of the things that I try and get our guys to do is to diarize thinking time once a week or at least with a reasonable amount of frequency.
Speaker A:And that is, to your point, Terry, that's where you've got a big solo question.
Speaker A:You don't have an answer to the hour.
Speaker A:The answer is, I ain't got a bloody clue.
Speaker A:And you sit with it and you just think and you write down some stuff because generally what happens with us as entrepreneurs and business owners is we have an idea of something.
Speaker A:You know, we have a question we don't have an answer to.
Speaker A:We have an idea and the first thing that pops into our head is the thing we try and go and do.
Speaker A:And 99.9 times out of a hundred, that is not the best thing to do.
Speaker A:So thinking time to allow you to sit and reflect, which is another superpower of successful entrepreneurs, is something we don't do because we're in a hurry, hurry, hurry.
Speaker B:One of the things you've taught me over the years is probably the thing that's in my head the most from being around you is, is that the right question?
Speaker B:And there's been so many times where I've been stewing over a question and then, you know, your voice pops in my head, is it the right question?
Speaker B:No, no, it's not.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:And then you dig into it and you're thinking about it from the wrong way, and then you come with a different question which actually answers that first question.
Speaker B:But again, like you said, it comes from that thinking time.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:Well, I'm in a really privileged position in that I live alone.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:Or dependent.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'd say it's a preliminary position.
Speaker B:So I can do literally what I want, when I want.
Speaker B:And I've got that hour thinking time on the morning.
Speaker B:It's scheduled in every morning.
Speaker B:My lessons start at 10, 7 till 8 for me is when I go for a walk and I'll often talk to myself.
Speaker B:And you're right, it just makes such a change.
Speaker B:So refresh.
Speaker A:Think.
Speaker B:People miss that.
Speaker B:Do you think that we don't allocate enough time to think?
Speaker A:We don't allocate any time to think is the truth.
Speaker A:Or we have the illusion of thinking, but we don't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Martin Luther King, God rest them, said that paraphrasing that thinking is the hardest work that we do.
Speaker A:Which is why most men, he said at the time, avoid it like the plague.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:It uses a lot of calories.
Speaker A:If anyone cares to Google that, they'll find that we use a lot.
Speaker A:We use a lot of energy to think.
Speaker A:If we do some proper, deep, hard thinking, um, so we do avoid it.
Speaker A:Um, it's simpler, well, easier to.
Speaker A:To go for the easy answers, if you like.
Speaker A:And what, unfortunately, what happens is if we don't do the.
Speaker A:The kind of thinking, particularly with regards to our business, we can often find that we're climbing what looks like the right ladder, but when we get to the top, it's against the wrong wall.
Speaker A:Um, and that's not a place anyone wants to be.
Speaker A:So doing, you know, setting your stall out early, understanding why you do what you do and being clear about it, locking into it, finding the things that you enjoy and really thinking deeply about all of that so that you get it as right as you can and then reflect on it so that you can course correct as you need to as you go on the path.
Speaker A:These are critical things and lead to a much happier existence as a business owner.
Speaker A:But most people don't do.
Speaker B:Why do you think they don't.
Speaker B:Why do you think we avoid it?
Speaker B:Hard, Scary?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, all of the above.
Speaker A:Primarily we don't understand that it's necessary.
Speaker A:We don't even think about it.
Speaker A:It isn't something we do naturally.
Speaker A:We're not aware because we're learning stuff.
Speaker A:So we're taught from an early age not to think but to do, to act.
Speaker A:So we act.
Speaker A:We do.
Speaker A:So your guys will go out and they'll by rope.
Speaker A:Quite often they'll just go through, they'll go through a lesson or a session or indeed if they're up leveling their skills, it's the same thing.
Speaker A:But they want sort of actively, if you like, think and look to extract as much juice from the basket of fruit, if you like, as they possibly could.
Speaker A:So our job is to help people ask those better questions of themselves.
Speaker A:You know, what am I trying to get out of this thing?
Speaker A:Is this the best way forward?
Speaker A:How do I know that?
Speaker A:And drill down constantly until you get to the nub of the thing.
Speaker A:So that if you've got a problem or a challenge, you meet the challenge.
Speaker A:The actual challenge that you're trying to solve or the problem or the you're trying to overcome.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Or the problem you're trying to solve.
Speaker A:Not the symptom of the problem or an illusory or mimetic challenge or something that you think is something you should be doing because you saw somebody else do it, but actually it's not who you are and it doesn't speak to you.
Speaker A:There's all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:So it's, you know, I was chatting, I was chatting the other day to Sarah Thompson, who's a wonderful lady marketing lady in our world, about Simon Sinek.
Speaker A:Start with why.
Speaker A:Yeah, he's, he's a thought leader and rightly, you know, thought highly of, but I have a big issue with that because.
Speaker A:Mainly because of how it's misinterpreted, but also some of the stuff that Simon says, and it's that, you know, if you start with why, everything flows.
Speaker A:Well, maybe, yeah, but maybe start with what and then bring the why in.
Speaker A:Yeah, this is what I want to do.
Speaker A:Why does it matter?
Speaker A:But you start with that.
Speaker A:Here's the problem I want to solve for the market.
Speaker A:So in the case of you guys, is helping people to.
Speaker A:On the surface level, it's helping people to learn to drive past their tests, so that it basically gives people mobility and freedom and all the good stuff.
Speaker A:Well, why.
Speaker A:Why does that matter?
Speaker A:So that's the second thing that you do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Why does it matter to you?
Speaker A:And why does it matter to the person in the car?
Speaker A:The person that's going to pay you the money?
Speaker A:Basically, we can get.
Speaker A:Hopefully we'll touch on pricing because that's something very.
Speaker A:I know it's a challenge in your industry, and it's something I'd like to talk about because I've got lots of examples of people who charge more than the people around them very successfully.
Speaker A:But it's that, why are they going to pay me more?
Speaker A:Why are they going to come to me, not somebody else?
Speaker A:Why.
Speaker A:Why am I going to actually want them in my car in the first place?
Speaker A:You know, these are lots of whys that you want to get to, but it starts with, what?
Speaker A:What am I doing?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then why does it matter?
Speaker A:So for me, challenging these, these, you know, these.
Speaker A:These ideas helps.
Speaker A:And the more of it you do, like any muscle, the.
Speaker A:The more the muscle grows, the easier it gets.
Speaker B:I think I want to ask you how someone would start with that, that getting better at thinking or whatever.
Speaker B:Just before I do, I think I want to give a personal example, and I do think this is a comfy one.
Speaker B:I hope this doesn't just sound like I'm spending the first 20 minutes just recording blowing smoke, but it's.
Speaker B:Think of the podcast and I think of driving lessons and I started over the, I don't know, last four years, more and more to allow thinking time within that.
Speaker B:So I know when I first started it, you know, I would be talking to you and I would.
Speaker B:If there was any silence after you'd finished speaking, I would hate.
Speaker B:Because I think for me, there was a bit of judgment there.
Speaker B:I'd be thinking, oh, Dean, almost think I'm stupid because I'm not speaking now.
Speaker B:I need to Say something really quick.
Speaker B:And the same on driving lessons.
Speaker B:You know, if a student, they asked me a question or they said something, it's like, I can't be silent.
Speaker B:I have to fill this silence.
Speaker B:Otherwise they'll think I'm stupid or, you know, go find someone else or whatever.
Speaker B:But now, not afraid to leave that silence to think.
Speaker B:You know, on this podcast, there's, there's times when I'll just wait and I'll think of a question or think of a response.
Speaker B:And same on lessons.
Speaker B:In fact, there was one recently I said to her, just, just give me a minute to think about that.
Speaker B:And it's like me four years ago wouldn't have done that.
Speaker B:And I know that's not quite the same thing.
Speaker B:Cause it's not, you know, giving yourself half an hour to ponder a situation, but it's giving yourself an element of time.
Speaker B:So where could someone start that isn't doing that?
Speaker B:Because it is quite scary.
Speaker B:I found it quite scary.
Speaker B:Where does someone start?
Speaker A:I think just pondering on something.
Speaker A:Well, first of all, being self effacing in the way that you are and were, Terry.
Speaker A:I mean, it's one of the things I've always admired about you.
Speaker A:You do think and ponder on these things anyway, whether you were in that situation four or five years ago or not.
Speaker A:The point is you still do because you're on that track of personal development.
Speaker A:You want to get better and we build a better business by becoming better business owners.
Speaker A:And that starts with being better humans in my, in my personal view.
Speaker A:Yeah, so, so with this, I think it's, it's that it's get on that path.
Speaker A:Am I, you know, am I thinking about this enough?
Speaker A:Is that answer a good enough answer?
Speaker A:Well, if it isn't, you know, if I'm not kind of feeling it, if I, if I don't think, if this thing's not working the way I kind of want it to, if this improvement's not happening in the, in the, at the pace that I want it to, how can I make that better?
Speaker A:What questions do I need to be asking?
Speaker A:And then you ask a question and go, okay, well what does that mean?
Speaker A:What does that lead to?
Speaker A:And you get this cascade of questions.
Speaker A:Well, if, if, if I need to know this, then how do I get to that?
Speaker A:Well, what's this thing?
Speaker A:And you drill down and eventually you get to the site, for example.
Speaker A:And a simple, a simple example in the, in marketing terms, is I right?
Speaker A:I want to, I don't know what price I should be charging.
Speaker A:Okay, well, what's the offer?
Speaker A:What do you mean by offer?
Speaker A:Yeah, because we get into this questioning thing.
Speaker A:Well, the offer is the thing that you put in front of somebody and say, do you want it to start with, Is it compelling enough?
Speaker A:Is the person who's an ideal client for you going to get, you know, take your hand off if you offer that thing to them not just on price, but on what the package is, what they perceive it's going to do for them, the value they can extract from the thing.
Speaker A:And the answer is no.
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker A:Well, the chances are the offer is not strong enough, first of all.
Speaker A:And it's not, it's not compelling enough.
Speaker A:But that's because your messaging's off.
Speaker A:Well, what does that mean?
Speaker A:Well, do you know what messaging is?
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker A:Bingo.
Speaker A:So now we've got another line of questions we've got to go down.
Speaker A:Maybe it's your positioning.
Speaker A:What's that?
Speaker A:Then we get into that.
Speaker A:What are the.
Speaker A:Then you start to learn, you think, well, hang on, what are all of the constituent or component parts of an offer that makes an offer compelling?
Speaker A:Now we've got a good question.
Speaker A:Glad you asked.
Speaker A:And then you get into it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:So we break the thing into its constituent component parts by asking those questions and start to search.
Speaker A:So a better question, if we talk about price, a better question than, well, what price should I charge?
Speaker A:Is what is it people want from this thing?
Speaker A:Start there.
Speaker A:Because then we begin the process of expanding this into, okay, well, if I'm offering that, what's the value can extract?
Speaker A:Because the understanding, hopefully that we've got is that people pay with the currency that is less valuable to them for the currency, the thing they want, that is more valuable.
Speaker A:So people who are short on time and value money less will buy time with money, for example.
Speaker A:And we have many examples of this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:People who want the, who want the thing that the lesson, you know, the driving license will give them will pay more in certain circumstances, will pay more with the money because they want the thing more than the value of the money.
Speaker A:The value the money has to them in that moment when they buy the lesson or they buy the package.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:And once you understand that kind of gearing, that relationship, you can start asking questions about, well, how do I do that?
Speaker A:How do I, how do I ethically extract more value from them?
Speaker A:Because I'm giving them more value.
Speaker A:Because that's really all.
Speaker A:It's an exchange of value.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's, that's really all pricing.
Speaker A:Ultimately comes down to.
Speaker A:So the short answer is, just start asking some.
Speaker A:Give yourself a bit of time.
Speaker A:Look at your patterns of behavior.
Speaker A:Are you filling space?
Speaker A:The way you were is reflection?
Speaker A:Because that's the other part of thinking is, are you giving the student time to reflect?
Speaker A:Are you encouraging and engendering that in them?
Speaker A:Because that makes for a better driver.
Speaker A:Because it does.
Speaker A:Are you doing that yourself so that you can become a better instructor?
Speaker A:That's a good place to start.
Speaker A:And what questions are you asking?
Speaker A:Like, this person's struggling with this.
Speaker A:How can I help them improve?
Speaker A:For example, there's a really, really simple question which most instructors I would hope are already thinking about.
Speaker A:But then it's okay, that didn't work.
Speaker A:What else can I do?
Speaker A:You drill down beyond that, sort of behind that question, and start asking questions like, well, what drive?
Speaker A:What literally drives them?
Speaker A:What motivates them?
Speaker A:What is it that they're pushing back on?
Speaker A:What is it?
Speaker A:Why is it?
Speaker A:Why are they not getting this?
Speaker A:These are all the questions that we would ask.
Speaker A:These are better questions rather than just, why isn't this working?
Speaker A:Or who's this idiot that I've got in the car with me?
Speaker A:Or whatever it is that driving.
Speaker A:Some of driving instructors will think of.
Speaker A:So it's that.
Speaker A:Because ultimately, what is the job?
Speaker A:The job is to help the person in front of you become a better driver, safer driver, better on the road, better for everybody, and help them get the thing out of getting the license that they want, whatever that is.
Speaker B:What you've done effortlessly there is move us into the episode dissection part of the show, where we were looking back previously, which is kind of my job when you've done it for me, which is cool.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B: e recorded again back in June: Speaker B:I think that is my favorite intro of all time.
Speaker A:Well, the many words is definitely true.
Speaker A:I was described once as a man of great breath, and I kind of like that, actually, even though I really shouldn't.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yes, but thank you for that.
Speaker B:You touched on a couple of things there.
Speaker B:Let's start with prices, because we spoke about this a little bit on the last show, and it's still an issue, you know, largely in our industry, not.
Speaker B:Not completely, but larger.
Speaker B:There's still a great demand for lessons.
Speaker B:You know, there's this massive backlog on driving tests where people can't get a test and then they find a cancellation.
Speaker B:So then they come into us.
Speaker B:I've got a test in a week.
Speaker B:Can I, can you sort me out, you know, all this kind of stuff.
Speaker B:But even with this great demand, there's still a lot of people out there that are scared to raise the prices.
Speaker B:And there's also a lot of people out there don't know how to decide what to charge.
Speaker B:So I'm just wondering, if I throw that to you, how do we decide what to charge?
Speaker B:And if you've got that fear of raising your prices, how do we overcome that?
Speaker A:Yeah, two great questions.
Speaker A:Okay, so the first is you do the circle jerk of, you know, what's Bob charging?
Speaker A:What's Jane charging?
Speaker A:You know, and all that stuff.
Speaker A:Stuff.
Speaker A:And you get a, you got a, you know, not, not the average.
Speaker A:What's the minimum that I can find in the area?
Speaker A:What's the maximum I can find in the area?
Speaker A:And then immediately, without unwittingly, if you like, you realize that there is a difference in price because some person will be charging.
Speaker A:I don't have no idea what's a, what's a typical rate for a lesson?
Speaker B:Now, let's say where I am, about 35 to.
Speaker B:35 to 40 pound an hour.
Speaker A:Right, okay, so, geez.
Speaker A:Okay, right, so 35.
Speaker B:There's a note for me.
Speaker B:Is that all?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Bloody hell.
Speaker A:All right, so.
Speaker A:So it's 35 quid an hour, say, right, so let's say that somebody's charging 25 pounds because they're starting up and they want to get a reputation and blah, blah, whatever.
Speaker A:And then there's somebody charging 50 pounds an hour, fragment's sake.
Speaker A:So immediately you can see that there's somebody charging double what somebody else charges or somebody charging half what somebody else charges.
Speaker A:So now you know, it's possible to vary your price in a market and still trade.
Speaker A:So that's first thing from looking at all the people who are charging, bit of market research, really useful.
Speaker A:Second is, what is it people that get asked the question, what is it that the people that I want to be serving are going to get out of this?
Speaker A:And it's not a driving license, that's a thing.
Speaker A:What are the feelings?
Speaker A:What's it going to do for their confidence?
Speaker A:How is that going to impact on them?
Speaker A:And what do they want from that?
Speaker A:Not just the driving license itself, but what does it unlock?
Speaker A:What does it take them to, you know, is it freedom?
Speaker A:You know, when they get the first car or whatever, whatever.
Speaker A:Is it necessary for a job?
Speaker A:Is it, what is it?
Speaker A:What's driving them?
Speaker A:Once you've kind of got into that, you can have conversations with people that kind of bring them across the line into your world and they buy into your process, your methodology, your thinking, your culture, such that what they're buying is you and they're buying what they did, not the outcome, but the reassurance that they're going to get the outcome they want.
Speaker A:That's the people that really buy outcomes, they buy the reassurance of the outcome.
Speaker A:Really, really important nuanced distinction.
Speaker A:That being the case, you become the number one logical choice if you move them through the buyer's journeys as we know it that way.
Speaker A:And then you can start talking about pricing.
Speaker A:Because the first thing you want from anybody is to know from anybody is that they want to work with you.
Speaker A:And that's their primary thing, they want to work with you.
Speaker A:Now it's about price because that's the last thing you get into in the transaction.
Speaker A:If price is the first thing, you've got a problem on your hands because then it's transactional.
Speaker A:It's not a relationship based thing.
Speaker A:So in order to first of all set a price, you need to understand what the market's charging, generally the top and bottom of it, not the average.
Speaker A:Look at people that you admire, you kind of aspire to be like if you're new in the market, and if not, if you're an old hand, look at the top end of the market and go, okay, do I feel comfortable charging that in terms of the value exchange, what are they going to get from me?
Speaker A:Not again, not the things, but the feelings, the emotions, the personal development that comes with learning to drive and having to go through the changes and the learning that you go through facing yourself sometimes, a bit of courage, facing some fear, whatever it is, all that stuff, like good stuff that somebody learning, the drive will, will learn and become in the process and the accomplishment, what's that going to do for them?
Speaker A:So, okay, and get it from, from them in their words.
Speaker A:Once you've got that, you can go, okay, now the demographics, if you like, what am I looking for?
Speaker A:Because you know what the top end of the market here, around here is 50, I think 60.
Speaker A:The market will stand 65 quid.
Speaker A:It's a theory I've got, I'm going to try it, but I'm going to package it so that it's, it's a lump of money and it's not 65 quid a lesson or 65 pound an hour, but a package of lessons plus maybe some other stuff I can add by, by way of bonuses.
Speaker A:And now we're talking about 3, 4, 500 quid or whatever it's going to be.
Speaker A:And if you want to do that in the payment plan or whatever, that's, that's another problem to solve.
Speaker A:But the point is it's that much money, okay, So I get somebody to commit the five lessons or 10 lessons for this amount of money and they might do the maths and say, well, that means it's 65 quid a lesson and that's, that's up to them.
Speaker A:But you can, you can kind of dress it up a little bit, you can add some other stuff around it to add more value, which is really important and start to differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack.
Speaker A:You pay this money with me, Bob, because.
Speaker A:Explanation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now if they've arrived at the point where they want to work with you, then the affordability is the first thing.
Speaker A:Can they afford this?
Speaker A:And secondly it's the cash flow.
Speaker A:Can they cash flow it?
Speaker A:Because there's two bits, let's say £500 package, for argument's sake, just to get going.
Speaker A:If it's 500 quid and the average, you know, price for that is whatever, it's going to be 60 quid or whatever it is an hour plus your bonuses and the other things you throw in and they can afford that, but they don't have that, then you've got a mechanic, then the problem that you're solving is not affordability, it's cash flow.
Speaker A:So then things like payment plans come into, come into play.
Speaker A:But if they can afford it and they've got the cash flow, then they pay really, really simple.
Speaker A:If it's an affordability issue and they can't genuinely can't afford it, then and you've got the right person in front of you, then maybe you push the price a little bit high or you've just got the right person at the wrong time on their journey and then it's on to the next.
Speaker A:So for me you start with the idea that you can increase your prices by huge amounts in a brick and mortar business and particularly in this type of market where people have a weather eye on the price because they do is a nonsense in our world in the online space because prices are all over the place.
Speaker A:You can charge 20 grand to somebody for coaching or you can charge £200 for coaching.
Speaker A:It depends on what you're offering and who it is and whatever, whatever.
Speaker A:It's wild.
Speaker A:Copywriting's the same, all of that.
Speaker A:So it's very, very different.
Speaker A:So I hear a lot of advice about just double your prices.
Speaker A:They're way too low and some people can get away with that.
Speaker A:It's not good advice in my view.
Speaker A:Most of the time in your world it's death.
Speaker A:You wouldn't do that, but you would in you would.
Speaker A:You go up by an increment that would make sense.
Speaker A:And you test the market.
Speaker A:Once it normalizes, you go up by another increment and you test the market.
Speaker A:So similar but not the same Nell Mead, who's an or dear friend and an awesome, awesome physiotherapist, a great human.
Speaker A:She is London's highest paid physio.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:I don't know if she's still charging this now or she's gone up from there, but she, she.
Speaker A:When people in your neck of the woods would be charging 45 quid or 50 quid a session, she's £380.
Speaker A:All right, it's London and there's a square mile and whatever, but think about it, she's made a decision because down in London, £100 an hour is still rare.
Speaker A:Yep, £80 more.
Speaker A:You know, if you look up north and it's 50 quid down, down there it's about 80, she's 380.
Speaker A:How?
Speaker A:Because she went through this process.
Speaker A:We had many, many conversations about this and she was 120, then it was 150 and she started attracting the kind of clients for whom it wasn't a problem, they wanted the thing and they felt that she was the best person to do this for them.
Speaker A:So find an edge.
Speaker A:If you've got something where you know that what you're offering is significantly better for that person than somebody else can provide in the pack, shall we say the driving instructors in the area?
Speaker A:Cause it is a regional, location based thing, then you're justified in charging more.
Speaker A:And if you're justified in charging more, you can feel confident about that and you should charge more.
Speaker A:And then it's finding the people who say, you know what, I'm up for that.
Speaker A:Which is all she did.
Speaker A:I don't think that kind of makes sense.
Speaker A:But that stuff, for me, that's the process.
Speaker A:And of course you do it incrementally, you don't leap unless prices in the area are horribly low.
Speaker A:Yeah, but if, you know, fitness trainers are in the same boat, they have the same issue.
Speaker A:But you know, I always, I always Use the example of Madonna's trainer.
Speaker A:Back in the day, Madonna's training was getting 500 quid an hour when trainers were typically earning 25 to 30 quid an hour.
Speaker A:They're not getting much more than that now.
Speaker A:I mean, 65 quid is kind of like the top end of what a personal trainer in the uk in, yeah, most cities will charge.
Speaker A:This is decades ago.
Speaker A:This guy was on 500 quid an hour.
Speaker A:How does that work?
Speaker A:Yeah, because to her that was, that she wanted him and that was the value.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:So it's the same.
Speaker A:Have, have somebody in front of you who wants you to, to, to, to, to teach them, to get them over the line and then the money is less of a.
Speaker A:Less of.
Speaker B:And we'll be back with more from Deno in just a moment, but I'm taking a quick break from this episode to tell you about something that could really help you grow and that's the Instructor Podcast Premium membership.
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Speaker B:But for now, let's get back to the episode.
Speaker B:I'm going to ask a question, but I'm going to follow up.
Speaker B:I'm not sure if the example I'm thinking of actually fits with the question, but I'm going to try and see.
Speaker B:So my question is where does morality fit into prices?
Speaker B:And I think what I'm thinking of now, I'm going to use my example.
Speaker B:So where I live currently, I'm borderline between a really kind of high class area, being sort of Ilkley, that sort of area where people, you know, there's kids over there with BMW sat on the drive waiting for him.
Speaker B:To pass, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker B:And then the other side, which is sort of going in the center of Bradford's Heaton, that side of it now, there's someone that lives in Heaton on a council estate, cannot afford to pay the same prices that someone that lives in Ilkley with a range row or the drive can afford to pay.
Speaker B:How can I phrase this?
Speaker B:Is there anything wrong with me going, I want to work with those guys in Heaton more.
Speaker B:They're my type of people, so I'm going to charge less so I can work with those people and help those people.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I'll have to work an extra few hours to accommodate the fact that I want to work with those people.
Speaker B:Is that a bad thing?
Speaker B:Is that wrong?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:In no way, shape or form.
Speaker A:It's your business.
Speaker A:You decide on the rules.
Speaker A:The ethics of it are pretty straightforward.
Speaker A:As long as you feel that there's a fair value exchange.
Speaker A:The amount of money they give you for what you deliver gives them two to five times in whatever currency we're talking about, because recognition, validation, money time, these are all currencies.
Speaker A:So whatever it is they get from it in, in currency and inverted commas is 2 to 5 to at least 2 to 5 times that.
Speaker A:Stats mine and Simon's the same that.
Speaker A:That's our kind of basic formula.
Speaker A:So they're getting.
Speaker A:They pay you 60 quid and they're getting 120 to 300 pounds worth of value, if you like.
Speaker A:In terms of what they get from.
Speaker A:From a session, then great.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:It doesn't matter who that is.
Speaker A:Now, if that has to drop 35 quid and they're getting £70 to, you know, £150 plus 170 quids worth, great.
Speaker A:Same thing, same rule applies.
Speaker A:So you decide who you know, who you're happy working with.
Speaker A:I've known a lot of rich jerks and a lot of very, very, very awesome human beings who happen to be very wealthy as well.
Speaker A:And I'm happy working in those spaces.
Speaker A:But equally I do pro bono work and I, every month I do some work either for free, pro bono or at a discounted rate for somebody specific because I want to help, but.
Speaker A:So I get my fix that way.
Speaker A:But because of my costs and my outgoings and whatever, I couldn't live in that world, so I function elsewhere.
Speaker A:But I may, I want to con because I contribute to the people who've got the money because they're human beings too.
Speaker A:But there's somebody who can't afford me and needs, I know, needs what I've got to offer.
Speaker A:So I take them on board every month.
Speaker A:I'll help somebody.
Speaker A:And, you know, our community's very little money.
Speaker A:For that reason.
Speaker A:We want Simon and I want people who can't afford us.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're about five grand a day.
Speaker A:If we do corporate work, not with small businesses but with corporates, we charge that.
Speaker A:That takes us out of most of the market that you and I know.
Speaker A:So we created a community which is 20 quid a month currently, so that people can access this.
Speaker A:They get the same attention, the same focus, the same intimacy that somebody's paying us five grand a day gets.
Speaker A:They just don't get it for eight hours like that.
Speaker A:So, yeah, the short answer is, yeah, it's perfectly ethical.
Speaker A:In point of fact, I would insist on it if that's where you're happiest, providing the business model, which is the thing that breaks every business if it's not.
Speaker A:If it's faulty, the business model is sound so that you get paid sufficiently for the work that you do so that you can.
Speaker A:You can thrive.
Speaker A:That's the key.
Speaker A:If you work that out and that allows you to work with these guys in that part of Brantford, then fill.
Speaker B:Your boots and to put your example into our world there, I could do, for example, two days a week in Oakley and three days a week in Heaton, and that then works a business model.
Speaker B:And I get to spend most of my time potentially in this example, working with people that I enjoy working with and others less.
Speaker B:But just touch on your other point there.
Speaker B:About what, what you provide.
Speaker B:It's like, this is your thing.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker B:You are in a position and obviously fully justified in charge in what you charge.
Speaker B:But you're also coming on this podcast, you know, and not just mine, obviously there's others, but.
Speaker B:And this is what I like about people such as yourselves.
Speaker B:They're always willing to give time and that's obviously our most valuable resource.
Speaker B:And I just think it's such a.
Speaker B:Again, I'm getting a little bit sentimental just because it's like fire anniversary and stuff, but I just.
Speaker B:I still find it just like genuinely touching that that many people are willing to come and give it, but I think that potentially as well, is something that I don't think everyone gets.
Speaker B:You know, I've seen a few comments recently.
Speaker B:I'm being careful, I word this where instructors have spoke about when it's like they'll have a diary management app and they'll have spoken about that when the student passes they think it's unfair that the student still has access to their resources.
Speaker B:And I'm like, well, what's the problem with that?
Speaker B:You know, you've, you know, and I appreciate that's their own values or whatever, but I think so many people are reluctant to give anything away.
Speaker B:They're reluctant to go on that first lesson and say, by the way, if you don't like this first lesson, I'll refund you, you never need to come and see me again, you know.
Speaker B:And is there value in that?
Speaker B:Is there value in the, the element of free stuff?
Speaker A:Basically, yeah.
Speaker A:There's a great expression and there's some significant significance in this.
Speaker A:It's not entirely true.
Speaker A:But that which is given free has no value.
Speaker A:People have got to go through some kind of pain or some kind of exchange where they've got skin in the game.
Speaker A:Personal view.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if you give it freely, it isn't that the people who, the people who, who, who would value that, if you like, you know, you shouldn't give it to them.
Speaker A:But finding them when you're giving somebody for free tends to attract freebie seekers.
Speaker A:So the person that you want to get to by, by being generous and big hearted and doing that may not be the person who actually takes it for you from you and does anything with it.
Speaker A:So now flip side of that is if you charge an arm and a leg for something, that doesn't drive commitment from people either.
Speaker A:Because really what they're giving is not, it's not the money that causes the, creates the commitment.
Speaker A:The commitment's in them anyway.
Speaker A:So what you're looking for are people who are going to commit to the journey whether it's free or it's a thousand quit or whatever.
Speaker A:That's really, really important.
Speaker A:So we get good at identifying the people who are ready to commit.
Speaker A:There are three, there are three filters I tend to put people through.
Speaker A:State of state of awareness.
Speaker A:So how aware are they of the journey they're going to go on and what they want?
Speaker A:State of readiness, so how ready are they to act?
Speaker A:And state of commitment, which is on the scale, how committed are they going to be?
Speaker A:And the last one is the one that matters.
Speaker A:That's what locks it in.
Speaker A:They can be as where as hell.
Speaker A:They can be as ready as heck.
Speaker A:So that means they're prepared to pay you.
Speaker A:But if not going to commit and they're going to dick around, that's not something you want.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Does that help?
Speaker B:No, it, it definitely does.
Speaker B:I think, I just think for my experiences that there's a reluctance sometimes for free.
Speaker B:I think people tend to go one of two ways.
Speaker B:Either go too much free stuff on or not enough free stuff.
Speaker B:And for me, it's all about balance, I think.
Speaker B:But, but yeah, I think that's.
Speaker A:Again, if we're talking about free, if you're doing something free and, and you know, and somebody hasn't paid, I think that's dangerous.
Speaker A:If you are.
Speaker A:If they've established, for example, if they paid for a lesson and there's a refund of some kind or there's a lesson, you prepare to give them a second lesson if the lesson hasn't worked out well or whatever.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker A:So there's risk mitigation.
Speaker A:That's a different thing.
Speaker A:And again, providing you've got the right person, so you mitigate the possibility of them taking your eyes out basically by just coming and getting a free lesson and just throwing it at one side, you've got the right person in front of you, then there's value in that because you, if you, if you, if you're doing the risk reversal thing, which is really all that is, you're saying to somebody, look, it's my risk, it's not yours.
Speaker A:Come and give it a go.
Speaker A:I think, but based on, and this would be the kind of approach I think you're going to do okay, and you're going to be all right.
Speaker A:I don't know if we're going to work well together.
Speaker A:So this.
Speaker A:Make.
Speaker A:Let's make this my risk.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:You come.
Speaker A:If it doesn't work out, I might say to you, you know what I think?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've got a different driving instructor I know that I think would be a better fit for you.
Speaker A:I'm going to refund you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You might choose to do that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or I'm going to put you onto the driving instructor.
Speaker A:He's going to give you the first lesson for free.
Speaker A:You just pay the driving instructor under the table, whatever.
Speaker A:You can find a way of doing that.
Speaker A:Or it might be that you, you know, you, you know, I think you're okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we could work well together.
Speaker A:But you don't agree, which is fine.
Speaker A:So then I'll refund you.
Speaker A:So there's nothing wrong with doing that, providing it's the right person.
Speaker A:Key point, till we go back to what is it you're offering?
Speaker A:Obviously, the why, we get into that.
Speaker A:But then there's the who, which is the other thing that's really, really important.
Speaker A:Who is it you want to have in the, in the car next to you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if you're giving free stuff away, they've got to have some skin in the game so they, you know that they're prepared to part with a bit of cash, commit to something, and if you want to then layer on some stuff that mitigates the risk, that gives them more value, then that's fine.
Speaker B:Mentioned there about who we have in the car with us and this is somewhat, I think I annoy people with because I preach about this a lot about you want the learner that's right for you.
Speaker B:And we spoke a little bit on the last episode about that and listening back there was something I kicked myself on because I either didn't get you to clarify it or I didn't.
Speaker B:Well, basically I didn't go any further with it.
Speaker B:But you mentioned about the sort of your ideal client, your ideal avatar, and you mentioned it a couple of times today.
Speaker B:And one of the things on that episode was that you're not always a big fan of the way that's put across of the way people generate an ideal client or an ideal avatar.
Speaker A:Oh, God, no.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Didn't follow up on it so specifically I wanted to.
Speaker B:So I suppose, talk around that a little bit for me.
Speaker A:Yeah, sure.
Speaker A:It's a great.
Speaker A:It's a great question.
Speaker A:People make up ideal clients.
Speaker A:They don't, because they don't look at the actual clients that they've got and go, actually, Jane was great, Mary was great, Dorothy was a nightmare, Bob was a bloody nightmare.
Speaker A:And, you know, so two things.
Speaker A:You get the anti avatar because we are wired for survival and we're wired to look at, pick up things that are wrong much better than we are looking for and identifying solutions.
Speaker A:So there's a mental model called Via Negativa, which is the way of the negative, basically.
Speaker A:And it's a great way if you think of all the things that you would do, completely bugger up your driving school and get the wrong person in the car.
Speaker A:Start with that.
Speaker A:How would I do that?
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Well, I've just now identified 60 things I should not do.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:What's left?
Speaker A:Probably the things that I should consider.
Speaker A:So we look at the anti avatar.
Speaker A:Who would be the worst person to get in the cab?
Speaker A:In the car.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:We're not going to have that.
Speaker A:All right, who would be the best person?
Speaker A:Now we're getting closer to it because we've gone through that exercise.
Speaker A:But if we're theorizing the negative is easy, but the good characteristics is a lot harder.
Speaker A:So start with people that you know, you've really enjoyed working with and try and extract what were the three to five main characteristics of these people as human beings?
Speaker A:Well, they were fun, they were diligent, they had integrity.
Speaker A:If they said they were going to do something, you did it.
Speaker A:They paid me on time, more.
Speaker A:Integrity, yeah, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:They were honest, self effacing.
Speaker A:There's lots of things they had no, there was no hubris, no pride.
Speaker A:They were very, very good.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker A:No ego.
Speaker A:You start doing a list of things and go, you know what my top three things there are this, the integrity thing, the courage thing.
Speaker A:Because even if it scares them, they're going to do it.
Speaker A:And you begin to form a picture of the individual based on fact and data, not theory.
Speaker A:So you look at the broad spread of clients that you've had and go, okay, who's the nightmare?
Speaker A:Who was just a bliss?
Speaker A:Why was that?
Speaker A:Then we start asking the deeper questions, extract it, get the characteristics, look at some other things that maybe the psychographics, the demographics, some of the straight marketing things.
Speaker A:Where, you know, where did they come from?
Speaker A:Was it Oakley, for example, was it Heaton, you know, whatever, what age were they?
Speaker A:All that kind of stuff, what kind of background were they?
Speaker A:And extract from that and go, okay, I can now model that into a, not necessarily an ideal client, but a good fit client.
Speaker A:And now we've got the beginnings of a great avatar.
Speaker A:And now if we start getting intentional about it, every time somebody gets in the car, we're going, okay, let's assess you, how close to this model are you?
Speaker A:And bit by bit, for whatever reason, you know, maybe it's, it's just something that's out in the universe that's beyond my meager capabilities to understand.
Speaker A:But things get better and the clientele gets better.
Speaker A:If you start doing that because you focus on it, is that a better answer?
Speaker B:Yeah, perfect answer.
Speaker B:But I'm going to ask a follow up because I, it's something I've spoke about a lot is this and about how to do it.
Speaker B:But I'm keen to ask your thoughts and I know you know, not necessarily specifically a marketer do you know, but I'm sure you can answer this.
Speaker B:So let's say my ideal client I've looked at and it's a Charlotte, which genuinely was, but how do I get more Charlottes?
Speaker A:You're, you're advertising your content, your rhetoric.
Speaker A:Out in the, out in the, out in the world has to attract Charlotte.
Speaker A:Really simple.
Speaker A:Charlotte has to go, oh, that's me.
Speaker A:This guy or this girl gets me.
Speaker A:They're speaking basically without them thinking it.
Speaker A:They, they.
Speaker A:They've given me language that I didn't have for the problem that I've got.
Speaker A:So they've been able to verbalize something I couldn't give words to.
Speaker A:The event of the conversation that's happening in my head between my ears, it's like they get me.
Speaker A:Then you go, that's it.
Speaker A:Then you attract Charlotte and you repel the not Charlottes.
Speaker A:So you say things that are going to send those people away because that's not what they're looking for.
Speaker A:So in simple conceptual terms, that's what you do.
Speaker A:Now, how you do that in practical terms, that's a whole conversation in itself.
Speaker A:But yeah, that's the simplest way of explaining.
Speaker B:I think the thing we're putting out here as well is yes, we attract more Charlottes, yes, we repel people that opposite to Charlotte's, but we don't repel everyone who isn't Charlotte.
Speaker B:You know, we'll still attract a lot of people that have some of the qualities that Charlotte have, because we're not just going for that one person.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, this is the other thing.
Speaker A:And another thing that would be useful for the guys listening to maybe reflect on is you don't have to.
Speaker A:Also, you don't have to niche to the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:Because we talk about niching a lot.
Speaker A:If you speak to.
Speaker A:You know, the old marketing adage is if you speak to everyone, you speak to no one.
Speaker A:So you don't want a general message.
Speaker A:You want to message this.
Speaker A:Because we think when we're new in business in particular, or if we're acting as if we're new in business, you could have been in running a driver's school for 20, for 15 or 20 years, still be getting it wrong.
Speaker A:Because God knows there's plenty of people in business that do that in all walks of life.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:I was doing with a corporate the other day that's been around for probably about 80, 85 years, the 22 million turnover, they're still getting it wrong.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's everybody.
Speaker A:Because humans.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if you've got somebody who.
Speaker A:If you've got somebody who is not a perfect fit, but they have the problem, you know, the aspiration, shall we say in this case, that.
Speaker A:That your ideal client has.
Speaker A:You're niching instead of niching to the individual, to the Charlottes of the world, you niche to the problem that Charlotte has as Charlotte expresses it.
Speaker A:So now we talk Charlotte's language for the Charlottes, but about the problem that actually a wide range of people have got.
Speaker A:And they'll see themselves pretty much in the conversation that you would have with a Charlotte, if you like.
Speaker A:So if Debbie comes along, Debbie goes, you know, actually, Terry's.
Speaker A:Terry's my guy.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:So whatever aspiration, when I say niche to the problem, also the aspirations, two sides of the same coin.
Speaker A:So the aspiration that Debbie's got is the same with Charlotte's.
Speaker A:Two different people, two different demographics.
Speaker A:Maybe the psychographics are a little bit different, but they want the same thing and they probably want it in the same way.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:So we go to.
Speaker A:We go after the problem.
Speaker A:So at success engineers, we help people who are brilliant at what they do build a thriving business around that brilliance around them.
Speaker A:So they're not shoehorning themselves into somebody else's idea of what a business should be, but they still have to honor the fundamentals of business.
Speaker A:Because if you break the rules, you break your business like that.
Speaker A:So you've got to do both.
Speaker A:So we fig.
Speaker A:We figure that out.
Speaker A:Well, what is that?
Speaker A:We look for people who are brilliant at what they do.
Speaker A:That's not a specific person.
Speaker A:That's not, you know, that's not a.
Speaker A:That's not a niche in and of itself.
Speaker A:Now, do we dial that in?
Speaker A:Yes, we do.
Speaker A:Because how these people show up is we have specific tests for this.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But specifically, when I'm putting content out, I'm drawing these people out from the shadows because they've had experience of trying to do business somebody else's way.
Speaker A:They follow the blueprint or a mechanism instead of a model or a framework, and they've been essentially trying to build business somebody else's way, and it's not worked for them.
Speaker A:So the problem that we solve in doing this and helping brilliant people wrap a thriving business around that brilliance is we help them understand how to build their own personal blueprint.
Speaker A:Because they've had a blueprint that hasn't worked.
Speaker A:So that's the problem that we solve.
Speaker A:That makes sense.
Speaker A:So they get a steady income, sustainable business, a business that achieves more with less of them.
Speaker A:All the good stuff.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:So niche to the problem.
Speaker A:What is the problem that Charlotte expresses?
Speaker A:Who else has got that problem?
Speaker A:That's the way of finding more Charlottes who are not Charlotte, if that makes sense.
Speaker B:Makes sense.
Speaker B:But I am going to move on because I want to read back a quote to you.
Speaker B:And I shared this on social media recently, or at least paraphrase the quote.
Speaker B:On social media.
Speaker B:Because it took me really, this episode, it really took me back because here we go.
Speaker B:So you said people go to a good driving instructor and they go there because they think they're gonna find out what the buying point is on the clutch and all that shit.
Speaker B:And of course, it's not really about that at all, is it?
Speaker B:Now?
Speaker B:Love this listening back.
Speaker B:I'd forgotten you said that.
Speaker B:If I'm honest with you, and it's something that so many of us preach about, you know, I mean, this ain't just learning strive.
Speaker B:I'm sure you see this in all walks of life, but again, I'm just going to throw that open to you a little bit.
Speaker B:Talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker B:People again, looking at the wrong problem almost.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Solving the wrong problem.
Speaker A:They think that.
Speaker A:And people come with this big.
Speaker A:So we get sucked in, as you guys as driving instructors will get sucked into the belief that somebody has.
Speaker A:Because yeah, take an example of this just going a little bit off piste.
Speaker A:Somebody walks into a gym, you know, third of January or whatever, and says to grabs a personal trainer and says, I want to lose 20 kilos.
Speaker A:Well, what, what weight loss program have you got?
Speaker A:The personal trainer, the fit pro, is very experienced and she knows that that's not really the problem.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So she starts probing and asking some questions and what is it?
Speaker A:And it turns out that they, they, they, they feel they think they look like a bag of shit and they don't, but that's what they think.
Speaker A:And they think if they lose the weight, they'll, they'll be more, you know, they'll be more desirable, more lovable and whatever, whatever, that's really what's going on.
Speaker A:And also their energy is a bit crap or whatever.
Speaker A:So they decided that losing 20 kilos, some of which would probably be muscle, because if they do it the wrong way, that's exactly what it's going to be, which is going to harm them is the solution.
Speaker A:And the fit pro, of course, knows that's not not the solution.
Speaker A:And of course, losing the weight is not the end goal.
Speaker A:That's not what they're after.
Speaker A:So the mechanics of driving a car is not really what somebody's after when they show up, but they think it is.
Speaker A:That's where they come from.
Speaker A:And yes, there's a confidence thing and there's all the other stuff, but there's the observational skills that they probably even haven't thought about and all the other stuff.
Speaker A:And of course, as we know, when we do advanced Driving, the mechanics of driving is not what driving is.
Speaker A:You're driving a car, you're making the car go safely where you want it to go to, and that's not really about the mechanics at all.
Speaker A:So mastery of the controls, yes, but not that.
Speaker A:So it's the understanding that driving instructors, aware driving instructors, should have that when the person comes to them, when a potential learner or client comes to them, what they're asking for is not really what they want.
Speaker A:And it's that ability to drill below that, like the fit pro and say, well, what is it?
Speaker A:And yeah, it might be the guy, the guy in front of, you know, the fit probably just thinks his wife doesn't love him anymore.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he thinks that that's somehow going to solve it.
Speaker A:And yeah, maybe the fit pro wants to get in the middle of that and maybe she doesn't.
Speaker A:But the point is she's going to figure it out, because if she's going to take this guy on, she needs to understand what his drivers are.
Speaker A:What are his motivational drivers.
Speaker A:It's exactly the same.
Speaker A:No pun intended, but it's exactly the same for the learner.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's really what I was alluding to.
Speaker A:You're taking somebody on a journey of personal development.
Speaker A:That's what you guys do.
Speaker A:Whether you know it or not, that's what you do.
Speaker A:And the learner sure as hell doesn't know that.
Speaker A:They'll feel it, but they don't know it.
Speaker A:The better you can articulate that, my view is the more money you should make, truthfully, and the more happy campus you should have in terms of your learners.
Speaker A:Because that's.
Speaker A:That's really the job as I see it anywhere, as an outsider.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Though.
Speaker B:And this is one of the things I've learned since doing this podcast is that so much stuff that relates to a driving shooter relates to every business.
Speaker B:You know, the problems are the same.
Speaker B:They're just a different.
Speaker B:The phrase a different way.
Speaker B:You know, and I think that, to use the.
Speaker B:The example of the clutch, that kind of mentioned the.
Speaker B:In the quote, it's like people, yes, they want to learn how to find the biting point, but.
Speaker B:But why?
Speaker B:You know, often it's because they're worried they'll hold people up behind them, you know, that type of thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, they don't want to stall the car or whatever.
Speaker A:But again, it's that, yeah, stop focusing on the mechanics.
Speaker A:Yes, you need.
Speaker A:You need all of that.
Speaker A:Of course, I remember teaching my daughter, same thing.
Speaker A:I mean, she's got no Problem with it now.
Speaker A:So it's second nature.
Speaker A:But she was agonizing over it, but it was okay.
Speaker A:Well, ultimately, what are we trying to do?
Speaker A:We're trying to keep the car moving effectively when it's appropriate to do so.
Speaker A:And yes, that's one of the mechanics.
Speaker A:But again, back to your point.
Speaker A:Ultimately what are we trying to do, what are we trying to achieve?
Speaker A:And this is just one of the various components that we need to learn on that path.
Speaker A:It's, it's not a thing in and of itself.
Speaker A:But yeah, you're right.
Speaker A:I remember my dad when he taught me way, way, way back, he said the clutch drives the car.
Speaker A:That was his thing.
Speaker A:So I, I got, I, I becoming, this is a long time ago.
Speaker A:I got obsessed with, with, with, with that because again, what do you do?
Speaker A:You, you, the accomplishment is in mastering the mechanics and you don't really understand that if you're in the hands of a really good instructor, that that's just, that's, that's incidental to a large extent.
Speaker A:I, yeah, in my, my view, although it doesn't kind of work in, in, in, in native English, I still think, because this is really what you guys do, I think you should be really consider yourself driving coaches because you coach, you don't instruct, instruct instructors very front of the classroom, you know, pointing learn this thing which feeds the whole idea of the highway code and, and the mechanics and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:You're learning facts, you know, you're learning skills.
Speaker A:But really what you do is develop the person and that's a coach's job, that's not an instructor's job.
Speaker A:So I think, yeah, even though it kind of doesn't work in the language, it's really what you do.
Speaker B:As people listening to this will now be punching the air at that comment that we're driving coaches and there'll be people listening to this that are also calling you Satan right now.
Speaker B:Dino.
Speaker B:But you'll like this because I recently described this podcast.
Speaker B:It's very self aggrandizing, this comment, but I loved it.
Speaker B:I described this podcast as the client centered podcast because I don't give the people what they want, I give them what they need.
Speaker B:And it's very much that.
Speaker B:But look, I want to read another quote to you and I don't want to dwell on this bit too much, but I really love this quote and we'll touch on it a little bit because we're talking about CPD and obviously everyone listened to this is investing in some form of cpd, they're paying for this membership.
Speaker B:But we were talking a bit about people that have no interest in CPD and in particular in paying fruit.
Speaker B:And I just loved your quote, which was, you're a driving instructor.
Speaker B:What the funk do you think you're doing?
Speaker B:So, and I don't know, maybe from outside of the industry, because you will see this a lot as well, people not willing to pay for stuff.
Speaker B:And we touched about free stuff before, as we said, there's nothing wrong with that inherently.
Speaker B:Do you think that the world's.
Speaker B:The world?
Speaker B:That's quite a big question.
Speaker B:Do you think that people are getting better at this?
Speaker B:Worse than this?
Speaker B:Do you think it's always going to be there?
Speaker B:This idea of being anti pain for stuff I don't need to develop.
Speaker B:I'm going to keep doing fin those ways I always done them.
Speaker A:That's a breed of person.
Speaker A:I don't think it.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the, the mix of, you know, people who do and people who don't might shift over time, but the mix is always there because human beings.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we just, we, I think to keep our sanity, we just look for the people who get it, who are.
Speaker A:I, I, you know, we might call them enlightened, maybe they're just a bit more aware.
Speaker A:But the reality is that if you, if, if, if you, if you, it's a karmic thing, if you are struggling and people aren't investing in you and you're not investing in yourself, why the fuck do you think that's happening?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a simple law.
Speaker A:It really is.
Speaker A:You invest in yourself and because of that other people will pick up on that because you get better and people want to be around people who are better and help them become better.
Speaker A:And ultimately that's what you guys do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So the ones who get that and they get the bigger picture, if you like, the wider, the wider, deeper picture and understand it isn't just about the mechanics and it isn't just about extracting things for free and all that kind of stuff and it's paying for things that improve you.
Speaker A:And therefore, as you become a better person, you become a better business owner, you create a better business, you create more good in the world in the way that you do it.
Speaker A:Everyone wants to have impact.
Speaker A:Pretty much that's the way you guys do it.
Speaker A:That's a virtuous thing.
Speaker A:You fight it, it's going to fight you.
Speaker A:Because force creates counterforce.
Speaker A:The harder you Push the harder something pushes back.
Speaker A:That's the way it is.
Speaker B:We have been talking for nearly an hour.
Speaker B: launching a podcast in April: Speaker B:And this could cause me to die on my ass right now, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Speaker B:Live.
Speaker B:I'm gonna ask you, there is so much more I want to dig into.
Speaker B:Are you gonna come back and do a part two for me at some point?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'd be, I'd be honored.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, I went too easy.
Speaker B:I was expecting some kind of resistance.
Speaker A:I mean when, when is different matter?
Speaker A:Me cranking and finding the time, that's different.
Speaker A:But the principle of it, Absolutely no problem at all.
Speaker B:I would love to.
Speaker B:There's so much more to dig into, but I appreciate we've been talking for nearly an hour.
Speaker B:So I'm going to give you the opportunity just to tell people a little bit about social engineers, anything else that you think might be of use to people in this community.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:Thank you for that.
Speaker A:Really simple, I guess if anyone's.
Speaker A:If the stuff I've talked about has resonated that we simplify things, even though there's been a lot of stuff that I've talked about.
Speaker A:Terry, as you know, Simon and I very, very, we're kind of into the whole masters of simplicity thing.
Speaker A:So reducing things down into the simplest possible terms and ways of understanding and then going and doing complex things sometimes, but just being able to grasp it.
Speaker A:So simple foundational principles for how you build a business that is sustainable, ethical, enjoyable.
Speaker A:What Joe Polish, who's a great guy to look at Genius Network over in the States, he calls ELF easy, lucrative and fun.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that we want.
Speaker A:So we help people do that.
Speaker A:We have.
Speaker A:There are various ways that I can help from a one to one basis right the way through to our community success and lot that I mentioned before.
Speaker A:We have all manner of people in their brick and mortar conventional businesses, sizable businesses, and people frankly haven't got the nails to scratch themselves with in the online space and are trying to figure a way out.
Speaker A:And Simon and I give our time and we've got a bunch of really good experts in there as well as the community itself, which self helps some phenomenal people in there.
Speaker A:They're all good humans.
Speaker A:Our maxim is good humans first, business second.
Speaker A:That's how we end up with a really good thriving community is it will be 30 quid a month.
Speaker A:It was £10amonth.
Speaker A:It's now 20.
Speaker A:No commitment, no lock in.
Speaker A:Come in.
Speaker A:The guys listening to the podcast can come in for a month for free on me and just see if it's for them.
Speaker A:But I would recommend or suggest that anybody who's listened to this, for whom this has resonated and wants to get better, wants to be able to charge more, wants to have a more enjoyable experience in their driving school.
Speaker A:If they want to go down that route and just learn how to run business better, which obviously would have an impact on their driving business, come and, you know, come and look up the group, come and join, come and make themselves known.
Speaker A:Come to one or two of the coaching sessions because I coach in there, as you know, every month and start getting some proper better questions drilled into the business so they start taking better actions and get better outcomes.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:So I will put links to that in the show notes and in the mini workbook that goes alongside this episode.
Speaker B: to thank you for coming on in: Speaker A:Yep, absolute pleasure as ever.
Speaker A:You ask great questions and you're a tremendous host and interviewer, so thank you for that.
Speaker A:It's been a great experience.
Speaker B:Well, that's my clip for social media side, so a big thank you to Dino for joining me again on this episode.
Speaker B:I always come away from our conversations with a head full of ideas and for me a big few takeaways from today were the importance of setting aside proper thinking time so you can ask better questions and make better decisions.
Speaker B:Also that pricing isn't just about what you charge, it's about the value and reassurance you give to your clients.
Speaker B:And you don't have to work with everyone.
Speaker B:You can build a business around the people that you truly enjoy teaching.
Speaker B:Now, if you enjoyed this, remember this is just a taste of what's inside of the Instructor Podcast Premium membership.
Speaker B:There you'll find even more episode dissections, exclusive workshops and expert sessions to help you grow your skills, your business, your confidence, all that kind of awesome stuff.
Speaker B:Now you can join today with no long term tagging.
Speaker B:Just head signature to podcast.com or patreon.com forward/inventor and sign up.
Speaker B:There's a free week's trial so you can get a taster.
Speaker B:Or if you do want something more long term, you can save 16% on an annual membership.
Speaker B:And don't forget, subscribe to the email list to get free episode workbook that goes alongside this discussion.
Speaker B:It's packed with key points, quotes, and reflective questions from today's chat.
Speaker B:Just visit the instructorpodcast.com to sign up to the email or the WhatsApp or premium.
Speaker B:And again, thanks for listening.
Speaker B:And let's keep raising standards.
Speaker A:The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker B:About what drives them.
