Unlocking the Secrets of Client-Centred Learning: A Chat with Ray Seagrave
Today’s guest is Ray Seagrave, and we’re diving deep into his brand new book, "The Driving Instructor's Ultimate Guide to Client Centred Lessons." This episode is all about how to elevate your game as a driving instructor by focusing on client-centred learning and the importance of understanding your pupils as individuals. Ray shares how he’s crafted this book as a companion for both newly qualified and experienced instructors, ensuring they have the tools they need for continuous personal development. Plus, we’ve got a fun giveaway at the end, where you could snag a free copy of Ray's book! So buckle up, because we’re about to hit the road to better teaching strategies and insights that could change the way you instruct!
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Takeaways:
- Ray Seagrave's new book is a comprehensive guide designed to support driving instructors in their professional development.
- Client-centered learning is essential for engaging pupils and fostering a deeper understanding of driving safety.
- The book emphasizes the importance of reflection, encouraging instructors to help students think critically about their driving experiences.
- Understanding a pupil's individual background and emotional state can greatly enhance their learning experience in the car.
- Each chapter in the book includes reflective questions to promote ongoing self-assessment and growth for driving instructors.
- The conversation highlights the shift in the industry towards more holistic teaching methods, moving beyond the basic standards check.
Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker B:About what drives them.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.
Speaker A:This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor.
Speaker A:And as always, I am your host, Terry Cook.
Speaker A:And I'm delighted to be here because we've got a lovely little bonus episode for today because Ray Seagrave popped along to talk about his brand new book, the Driving Instructor's Ultimate Guide to Client Centered Lessons.
Speaker A:And if you want to win a free copy of Ray's book, then hang about to the end of the episode because we'll tell you just how you can do that.
Speaker A:But before we get stuck in, I want to point you in the direction of the instructor podcast website.
Speaker A:That's www.theinstructorpodcast.com.
Speaker A:if you head over there, you can find all of our free resources.
Speaker A:You can find out more about the paid membership, including the free weeks trial.
Speaker A:And you can sign up to the newsletter and the WhatsApp channel as well.
Speaker A:That's www.theinstructorpodcast.com.
Speaker A:but for now, let's get stuck into the show.
Speaker A:So we're now joined by Ray Segrave.
Speaker A:How we doing, Ray?
Speaker B:I'm doing great, yeah.
Speaker B:Really looking forward to another interesting conversation.
Speaker A:Always a pleasure chatting to you.
Speaker A:We've got somewhere cool to chat about today because you recently released a second book not long after your first book.
Speaker A:So do you know what?
Speaker A:Actually I think my first questionnaire is going to be what's made you release two kind of in quick succession?
Speaker A:Cause I know you've spoke before about the book that's been in your brain for a long time.
Speaker A:But why was it two in such quick succession?
Speaker B:Well, it's two books in one because I had an idea for doing a number of series if you like, way back during lockdown.
Speaker B:And so I've been preparing for this for quite some time.
Speaker B:So I had ideas and thoughts and I split them up into different areas.
Speaker B:And the first one was about coaching and coaching questions and I knew that there was going to be a series.
Speaker B:So I've started quite a while ago and that's why they've ended up in quick succession.
Speaker A:So the first book was called the Driving Instructor's Ultimate Guide to Coaching Questions.
Speaker A:And this one is A Driving Instructor's Ultimate Guide to Client Centered Learnings.
Speaker A:Now this second book in particular I've had the pleasure of reading.
Speaker A:You send it through to me to have a look and it's really in depth.
Speaker A:We were kind of joke before we record that you said, will you read it for me and I'll come through port over.
Speaker A:I have to schedule some timing for this bad boy.
Speaker A:You cover a lot in this book.
Speaker A:So who's it aimed at?
Speaker A:Who's, who's the book for?
Speaker B:Well, I wanted, when I first came into the industry, and I'm sure every ADI and PDIs felt a little bit like this.
Speaker B:You feel quite alone, you qualify.
Speaker B:And then you feel like, you know, you stuck out in the cold for a bit.
Speaker B:And I remember thinking, well, what next?
Speaker B:You know, where do I go for my development?
Speaker B:Am I doing the right thing?
Speaker B:And there was very, very little around around then.
Speaker B:So I decided that I wanted to put something together that would be like a companion, a companion for someone that's coming into the industry for the first time, but also a companion for any idea, any adi, a newly qualified adi, to give them something that they could go to, to help them with their continuous personal development.
Speaker B:Because we both know, Terry, that when you pass a part three, that's the minimum, isn't it?
Speaker B:That's the minimum standard.
Speaker B:And everything else is learning and personal growth and development.
Speaker B:And when I look back now and I think, okay, well, today I've got a book, I've got two books out and they've been 16 years in the making.
Speaker B:You know, they, they're a, they're almost like a reflection of my journey in as much as that what, what was it that I had to learn to be better at?
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:When you, when you've got an open learning mindset, you, you think about, you know, where you are now and where you'd like to get to.
Speaker B:And, and every day's a question.
Speaker B:Every day you question, what could I do differently next time?
Speaker B:What can I do better?
Speaker B:How can I, as a PDI or an adi, how can I help my pupils?
Speaker B:How can I help them succeed?
Speaker B:Particularly if you care about what you're doing.
Speaker B:There's a hell of a lot of instructors out there that do care about what they do and they want to make sure that their pupils are known as successful, but continue to be successful in driving safely.
Speaker B:And I came into this industry thinking, well, what is safe driving for life?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:And then client centered learning came in and the national driver rider standards changed.
Speaker B:And that spurred me on to develop myself and with an understanding that I'd be teaching this on at some point because that was my goal.
Speaker B:I want to be a trainer.
Speaker B:Trainer.
Speaker B:So this is a bit of a reflection so far in the series, which is why I suppose I've called it the ultimate guide because it's, it's a, it's a combination and a collection that helps people, helps PDIs and ADIs look at different parts of teaching and at any point they can say, do you know what?
Speaker B:I really, I'm really interested in that, whether it's a bit of psychology or whether it's a bit of teaching, learning strategies or.
Speaker B:And they can then, then go on and look into that in a little bit more detail, which is what I did.
Speaker B:So I mean, the book in itself, I know it's 400 odd pages, but it tends to just skirt the outskirts of, of.
Speaker B:I know you say it's depth and detail.
Speaker B:I wanted to go into sufficient enough depth that made it relatable that you could relate everything in there to a situation that you've had in the car and that you need some help and advice on or even understanding, you know, why would that be?
Speaker B:What's the reason for that?
Speaker B:That you then could read the book and it would be easy reading and then you could think, right, okay, that can help me.
Speaker B:Now, at the end of every chapter there's 17 chapters.
Speaker B:And chapter 17 actually is a plan, an action plan that comes from.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:That comes from the end of each chapter because at the end of each chapter there's a section there where there's a number of reflection questions based on what you've just read.
Speaker B:So that forces you to think, okay, well, do I do this?
Speaker B:Can I do this a better way?
Speaker B:What could I do in the car next week, next lesson?
Speaker B:So then at the end of every chapter, all that builds so it's a continuous self reflection on what you're doing now and what you could do better.
Speaker B:So I'll put it together as a companion, as someone you could go back to and say, okay, what could I do better here?
Speaker B:Whether that's coaching or a method of teaching or just understanding my pupil.
Speaker B:But I wanted to go into, to a sufficient enough depth that an ADRP I could go, ah, that's what that is.
Speaker B:I get that now.
Speaker B:And how can I, what could I do now to actually recognize how I can now help my, my pupil now I know what that is, and then go back to the car with the plan.
Speaker B:And I wanted to have light bulb moments pinging off here, there and everywhere and success.
Speaker B:You know, the reason for writing it as an ultimate guide?
Speaker B:It is a guide.
Speaker B:It's holding, it's holding a little bit by the hand.
Speaker B:It's going to sufficient of detail that you can then think right I can take that to the car and just try it for myself.
Speaker A:I mean, I'll be honest with this.
Speaker A:I need to reread it because there's, like.
Speaker A:You spoke about the reflective questions.
Speaker A:There is.
Speaker A:I skimmed over them because I'm reading the book.
Speaker A:But the interesting thing for me is when I think of cpd, or development, if you like, I always think of it in three ways.
Speaker A:Did I learn something new?
Speaker A:Did I learn like.
Speaker A:Or was there a different take on something I'm doing already?
Speaker A:Or did it confirm or reassure me that I'm doing this correctly?
Speaker A:And I reckon that anyone that read this book would tick all of those boxes somewhere.
Speaker A:And I think that's why, I'll be honest with you, I'm trying not to blow smoke on this episode.
Speaker A:But I told you this before, I would say this is the best driving instructor book I've read.
Speaker A:And that's not meant as a criticism to any of the others.
Speaker A:You know, I'm a massive fan of some of the others out there.
Speaker A:Previous to that, I'd say my favorite would have been Horse in the Driver's Seat by Jed and Claire Wilmot.
Speaker A:But for some reason, this just clicked for me.
Speaker A:And I don't normally resonate very well with textbooks and these.
Speaker A:This is written in that kind of textbook form, I feel like.
Speaker A:But this worked, and it gives you space to breathe.
Speaker A:And I kind of related it to listo podcasts.
Speaker A:Sometimes you leave the pause in because it gives a listener a chance to think for a second about what you've said.
Speaker A:And that feels like how this book is written.
Speaker A:Was that intentional?
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:Because, like you, Terry, we talk about learning styles a lot and how we can adapt what we do in the car to help our pupils learn.
Speaker B:But we learn in different ways ourselves.
Speaker B:And I'm not a reader.
Speaker B:I'm someone that dips into books.
Speaker B:And I read in small chunks because it's not my preferred way of taking information in.
Speaker B:I'm more of a visual person.
Speaker B:I like to see a YouTube video, or I'll just read a small chat, or I can see a picture, anything like that.
Speaker B:Which is why what I did here was, yes, there are 17 chapters, but they're of a manageable size and they stand alone independently.
Speaker B:Which means that you can then take that breath, take that breather, just reflect on what you've just read, and the questions are there to help you do that, and then help you find your own strengths and your own weaknesses in that particular area before you then move on to the next individual topic.
Speaker B:Because pretty much that's what they are, but they're all linked because it is the ultimate guide to client centered learning.
Speaker B:So everything in there links to how to be the best client centered driving instructor.
Speaker B:What that means, I mean, the first chapter itself goes into, you know, what is client centered learning?
Speaker B:Because there are some people out there that don't really know what client centered learning is.
Speaker B:They think they know what client centered learning is and they think they're practicing it, which, which is great.
Speaker B:And like me, I, when I first came into the industry, I thought I knew a lot of things.
Speaker B:And then you learn, don't you?
Speaker B:And you, you, you develop.
Speaker B:And, and that's why I wanted for this book to help someone do that.
Speaker B:But so there's definitions in there about, you know, what the DVSA put as client centered learning out the National Driver Rider Standards.
Speaker B:So, and chapter one goes into that straight away.
Speaker B:But importantly, what I wanted to also get across is how we can, I mean, adaption is the biggest thing that we can do as a trainer.
Speaker B:We can adapt to our pupil, we can adapt to them.
Speaker B:Because I know we've talked about this before, but I'm a strong opinion and belief actually that it's not skills that make, it's not skills that make a safe driver, it's behaviors.
Speaker B:And so there is a whole chapter dedicated in there to understanding your learner, whoever your learner is, about them, you know, the influences on them, how they might be parented and what their life experiences are, which help to build up their current understanding of morals and how they feel about things and what their views and opinions are.
Speaker B:I talked there about how to develop rapport and communicate with someone so you can then understand them as a person and understand where their beliefs are.
Speaker B:Because it's not until we help that person develop an understanding of risks and consequences, but more importantly how they impact on them that they become real to them.
Speaker B:And then that helps, and I talk about this in the book, that helps develop their intrinsic motivation, that thing inside them that drives them to be out on the road, driving a car, in a vehicle or a vehicle as safely as possible, the sorts of things that drive you.
Speaker B:And I, you know, what motivates us to do that.
Speaker B:So I dedicate a whole chapter on helping us really understand who's this person next to us.
Speaker B:And I always say, you know, we've got a blank piece of paper to start off with and we ask learning questions of our, of our pupil so we can then better understand how we can help them.
Speaker B:And everyone's different.
Speaker B:And talking about behaviors there again, there is a chapter on what I call the cognitive behavioral triangle, which is the three things that impact on and influence our behavior.
Speaker B:Things like, you know, how we think, our emotions, and we talk a lot in the industry about, you know, people with anxiety and people with phobias and fears and how they can impact on performance and how we believe and how we behave.
Speaker B:And understanding that little bit of theory there and how our thoughts, feelings and beliefs can impact on our behaviors and emotions helps you then shape how you can help your pupil in the car.
Speaker B:So just understanding that and understanding how their beliefs shape what you do, you can have those coaching conversations with them that help them form different opinions and safe driving beliefs.
Speaker B:Because safe driving for life is about our behavior.
Speaker B:It's not so much about skills.
Speaker B:So there's a whole section in this whole section on that, just helping understand the theory behind that.
Speaker B:But I think I said to you earlier that the word example features about 600 times in the book.
Speaker B:I was very conscious about making this real, very relatable with examples in there that you could use.
Speaker B:I could have written a book on each chapter, but it's top line to a degree.
Speaker A:Earlier on you mentioned that you're not much of a reader.
Speaker A:So is this a book that you would have read?
Speaker A:Is it the book that would entice you, someone that's not a reader, to read it?
Speaker A:Because as you said, it's really easy to dip in and out of.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think I said to you earlier, before we went live, I must have rewritten each chapter about five or six times.
Speaker B:And I've read this over and over because I wanted it to be easy reading.
Speaker B:So there are, there aren't very many big, big chunks of text.
Speaker B:You know, there's a couple of paragraphs here and a few paragraphs there and they're very concise points that you can have sit back and reflect about.
Speaker B:So it's very, very easy reading.
Speaker B:I think one of the people that reviewed it for me said it was addictive, addictive reading.
Speaker B:They just couldn't put it down.
Speaker B:They're up to about 2:00 in the morning reading it.
Speaker B:And when that person said that to me, I thought, wow, I've done it.
Speaker B:That's what I wanted it to be.
Speaker B:But for them, they really enjoyed it because of that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I think I had that in mind when I was writing it because I thought, well, are you bored, Ray?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Are you interested still?
Speaker B:Ray?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Is there something more you'd like to know yeah, carry on.
Speaker B:So I hope that comes across.
Speaker B:So don't be put off by the fact it's, you know, it's a few pages, it's about that thick.
Speaker B:But because it's very, it's very digestible.
Speaker B:Hopefully you'll find that.
Speaker A:I mean anyone that knows me will know that I get excited.
Speaker A:The bigger the book, you know, the longer the podcast, the bigger the book that's me hooked.
Speaker A:But I think my suggestion for anyone listening with this is to read it in one go and then go back and go again and then you pick the points you want to work on and focus on that.
Speaker A:But I think it is, I think, do you know what?
Speaker A:That was a really good word for it, addictive.
Speaker A:So I wish I'd have said that now.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:In your mind.
Speaker A:But I also want to touch back on the chapters, I think because just the concept of it, because you mentioned a couple there, understanding pupil as an individual and the cognitive behavior triangle.
Speaker A:But yeah, I was really interested just looking at this because you've got building trust and rapport with your pupil.
Speaker A:You've got exploring the goals, the gde, managing emotions and risky behaviors.
Speaker A:It's not a standards check.
Speaker A:Focused Bookery.
Speaker A:And surely that's what we should all be focused on, the standards check.
Speaker A:You know, presuming that was very specific and conscious and intentional in your thoughts.
Speaker A:This is not a standards checkbook.
Speaker B:It's not a standards checkbook.
Speaker B:It's a national driver and rider standards book.
Speaker B:So things that are in there about client centered learning all come out of the national and driver rider standards.
Speaker B:You know, if you look at unit 6.6.33, which talks about coaching and it references another unit in the standard about, you know, an atmosphere in the car conducive to a, you know, good and good communication that talks about, about rapport and trust.
Speaker B:But so it's having said that the, these, these, these 17 instructor competences are mentioned in there, but in terms of how they relate to, you know, to what is being talked about.
Speaker B:So there is something for everyone there, someone that's approaching a standards check or a part three, they will find there's some, something in there that's really going to help them.
Speaker B:When I see some reports come back from PDIs that come to me that have taken, you know, they may be taken a part three and they've not been successful and they come to me for some training or an ADI will do that.
Speaker B:And I see comments where, you know, not, not it wasn't.
Speaker B:The topic wasn't sufficiently discussed.
Speaker B:Or the questioning wasn't sufficient, they didn't go into enough depth, those sorts of things.
Speaker B:And that's about client centered learning.
Speaker B:It's about helping the pupil understand the full impact of the situation.
Speaker B:Which is why in risk management, you know, was a trainer where the pupil surroundings and actions, making sure you're aware of fully what's happening outside the car and how your pupil is driving the car and how that impacts on safety and risk.
Speaker B:So that's talked about in there, but it will help.
Speaker B:It's about how the national standards reflect what client centered learning truly is.
Speaker B:But a lot of, particularly in the past training, PDI training has not really focused on how to be the best teacher.
Speaker B:Unfortunately I've always focused on how to pass a Part 3 test.
Speaker B:This isn't that.
Speaker B:What this is is how to be the best teacher you can be, how to be the best coach you can be, how to be the best advocate, the best facilitator, how to be the best communicator, how to be the best person to understand what your pupil's needs are so you can adapt how he can put something together in a client centered way that puts them in the center of their learning.
Speaker B:But still you're facilitating that process.
Speaker B:It's client centered, not client led.
Speaker B:So it talks a lot about that.
Speaker B:So if you want to be the best trainer you can be, this will really help because it goes into those areas in that much detail and then an offshoot of that will be as a result of that.
Speaker B:I'm sure you'll be much more successful in a part three or standards check.
Speaker A:It's reassuring for me because the first book that came out, the Ultimate Guide to Coaching Questions, obviously done really well.
Speaker A:It was a bestseller as well.
Speaker A:So you know, that was, that was good.
Speaker A:And then the I think this new one's going to do even better.
Speaker A:And just stepping away from that for a second, I'm seeing more and more in the industry that isn't solely about the standards check.
Speaker A:And yes, there's probably what, 35,000 instructors that don't do any CPD potentially.
Speaker A:But then I think the number of people that are doing CPD is growing.
Speaker A:I think the number of people that are doing CPD that isn't just about the standard check is growing.
Speaker A:So I suppose, do you agree with me there?
Speaker A:Are you seeing that and is that something you're an advocate of?
Speaker B:Well, I'm pleased that's happening.
Speaker B:I've always been like that.
Speaker B:I've always been focused on how you can be the best you can be and then as a result of that you'll be successful.
Speaker B:But what is it you need to focus on in order to be that?
Speaker B:And it's always been the national driver rider Standards.
Speaker B:You know, you've got two columns there, the knowledge and understanding required and the performance standard.
Speaker B:And it is understanding that and how that relates into the car in amongst because it's a 17 competences that come out of the national and driver rider standards.
Speaker B:So get good at what the standard is suggesting that you need to be good at and the knowledge and experience and the understanding and how to structure a good lesson, how to structure a good client centered lesson, what that means get consistent at that and you'll get a high grade.
Speaker B:Because it is about structure in a client centered lesson.
Speaker B:And I talk about a six step lesson structure in the book.
Speaker B:It is about consistency because we need to be consistent for our learners.
Speaker B:They need to rely on us, that they're going to get that from us.
Speaker B:We need to consistently help them understand how they are performing through the goals that through lesson goals that they're trying to achieve every time we see them.
Speaker B:They need to help them understand where they are now and where their performance is, but also help them understand that when they pass a driving test, that's the beginning, that's not the end and the more that they can develop.
Speaker B:And it's that fifth level of learning which I talk about.
Speaker B:I talk about the five levels of learning in the book.
Speaker B:But the fifth level is helping them reflect, helping them reflect on their drive.
Speaker B:What's gone well, what hasn't gone so well, what they need to do differently next time to remain safe and then have the ability to take on responsibility.
Speaker B:Too many times we see drivers out there that get into problems, point fingers at each other and that's because a lot of the time they're not prepared to take on responsibility for their own actions.
Speaker B:But when you've, when you're.
Speaker B:Creating.
Speaker B:This book is about creating critical thinking drivers.
Speaker B:Those drivers that are prepared to take a step back and say what could I have done differently?
Speaker B:What is it that I needed to do there?
Speaker B:How could I have made that situation safer?
Speaker B:We see it every day, the amount of chaos that is out there where people haven't been able to control their emotions.
Speaker B:This book talks about that.
Speaker B:It talks about the impact of emotions on their, on our actions and our behavior.
Speaker B:And it talks about how we can help pupils recognize that their character has an impact on risk, that their beliefs have an impact on risk, that how they, how they might be impetuous or impatient and how that can impact on risk.
Speaker B:I talk about, I mean, I'm talking to the preaching that converted here, Terry, but for me, and I'm sure for you, it's.
Speaker B:Impatience is probably the number one killer in this country in terms of what happens out there on the road, and that's not being able to control our emotions.
Speaker B:So these are the conversations we're having with pupils in the car about, well, after the driving test, when you've got to drop the kids off and you're late, how's that going to impact on your risk then?
Speaker B:So what could you do differently?
Speaker B:How are you going to mitigate that?
Speaker B:How are you going to reduce that?
Speaker B:Are you going to park right outside the school and cause a parking problem and the hazards to all the kids and everyone else around?
Speaker B:Or are you going to be different?
Speaker B:How are you going to be different?
Speaker B:Why should you be different?
Speaker B:So we're helping them.
Speaker B:This book helps you understand how you can have those conversations because they're the important ones.
Speaker B:When all the skills are learned.
Speaker B:It is about how we drive the car.
Speaker B:As trainers, I always say we're teaching the what, the how and the why.
Speaker B:And the what is the skill.
Speaker B:The how is how you use the skill in that scenario, in that environment out there.
Speaker B:And the why is the why that we do it like that.
Speaker B:Why should you do it like that?
Speaker B:And this book talks about that.
Speaker B:It talks about creating critical thinking drivers that are prepared to take on responsibility for their own actions, have empathy with others, and then understand that their own character can cause problems, can cause issues, and recognize that and try, and try taking some steps that when they see themselves getting into a situation, they're able and strong enough to go, hang on a minute, I know what's going to happen here.
Speaker B:I'm just going to take a step back.
Speaker B:So this book helps you understand that, which is why I go into that in some depth in some of those areas.
Speaker A:You spoke about the reflection, responsibility there and it just, it brought me back a little back.
Speaker A:I don't know where this memory's come from, but when I trained, I was sort of the old fashioned way, if you like, you know, we were instructors, we'll tell you what to do and you'll shut up and listen.
Speaker A:It was, it was very much that kind of way.
Speaker A:But even back when I taught like that, as an instructor, I can remember giving students tips before their test.
Speaker A:And one of the tips was always, once you've passed, watch out for the near misses.
Speaker A:And when you have a Near miss, don't just blame the other driver.
Speaker A:Pull up and think about what you could have done differently.
Speaker A:And that's not the best advice in the world because you just throw an advice at someone and open the listen.
Speaker A:But thinking back now, listen to what I was saying.
Speaker A:I was encouraging students to reflect on their driving, which we weren't really doing at that time.
Speaker A:You know, the old PSTs if you like.
Speaker A:And that's why I think these books that you've written are important, because not just because they're really good, which they are.
Speaker A:Again, not wanting to blow smoke, but not just because of that, but because I think there's more options out there.
Speaker A:Because I can remember probably my first introduction to client side learning was Jed and Claire's who's in the driver's Seat book.
Speaker A:And that's, I think was probably got what got the ball rolling for me initially.
Speaker A:Well, you know, think about how many people once found that book.
Speaker A:Well, now they've got a choice of, you know, Jed and Claire's and then your two.
Speaker A:And from the book From B to A by Craig Predict.
Speaker A:You know, there's these other books out there that are talking about this stuff and encouraging you to do it, whereas again 10 years ago there's just one or none, you know, and I think that's why stuff like this is important at least.
Speaker B:But yeah, absolutely right, Terry.
Speaker B:And I think even, you know, you sense yourself back then there was a reason why you had those conversations with those pupils because you were touching on, you know, the importance of reflection and being self critical and.
Speaker B:But, you know, not every driver is like that, unfortunately.
Speaker B:And we see, we see too much of it and the better job that we can do.
Speaker B:I remember speaking to the Chief Constable of Warwickshire Police quite a few years ago now and he said to me, ray, he says, I'm in a different position to you in as much as I see it at the other end, the wrong end of the educational scale.
Speaker B:I get my officers to knock on doors giving people bad news.
Speaker B:You're in a great position, you're right at the beginning of the process and there was better job that you do there means that my officers don't have to do that on a daily basis.
Speaker B:And I took that on board and I said to myself at the time, how can I stop that from happening?
Speaker B:And there's only so much you can write about how to train in a car, how to teach skills and I mean even the driving test only assesses skills.
Speaker B:It doesn't assess the behaviors, skills in decision making.
Speaker B:But, and that's why you can teach someone to drive and pass a test and they do brilliantly.
Speaker B:They might have a zero fault pass.
Speaker B:And then the day after the test they go and drive in a way that you've never seen before.
Speaker B:Because their behavior is such that I can do what I like now.
Speaker B:And I only needed to do what I needed to do to pass the test.
Speaker B:Now I've passed the test, I can do what I like.
Speaker B:And that's why we see, there's a lot of reason why we see that on the road, because the behavior's not changed, they've just done something to pass the test.
Speaker B:So this book is about how you can really get into the psychological side of being client centered and understanding your pupil and what's in what's driving their behavior and what's.
Speaker B:And you said it earlier about building rapport and trust.
Speaker B:Trust is the cornerstone for that.
Speaker B:Rapport is having a great communication.
Speaker B:You and I, Terry, having a great conversation now.
Speaker B:But you might not be prepared to tell me you were an axe murderer once because my.
Speaker B:You don't know.
Speaker B:Not that you were, of course I'm joking.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But that's the difference between rapport and trust.
Speaker B:So trust really is a cornerstone of the in car relationship.
Speaker B:And when you've got trust, people would not be frightened to tell you that actually their friends think this, their family think that, and that's completely counter to any safety stuff that you're teaching them.
Speaker B:But the fact that they are telling you that means the trust barriers have come down and you can have that conversation and you can talk to them about what the risks and consequences of that are and what they might need to do to keep themselves safe.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So yeah, I think it's good that there's more of this happening because at the end of the day it's about how good a job we do at helping develop safe driving behavior.
Speaker B:The skills that when they're learned they, they don't really make good drivers.
Speaker B:It's behavior does that.
Speaker A:I don't know who I'd trust to admit I'm an axe murderer.
Speaker A:But yeah, with trust and rapport it's interesting because there's an.
Speaker A:I've got really good rapport with an awful lot of people in this industry, but I've learned that there's a lot less that I can trust.
Speaker A:So it's interesting.
Speaker A:But as always, Ray, you're always very generous with your time and everything else and you've been generous with us today because you are giving the listeners chance to win a free copy of your book.
Speaker A:And the way we're going to do that is quite simple in that share this episode, share it somewhere on social media, tag in either or myself, and then we'll, we'll pick you guys randomly and we can get in touch to arrange.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:But yes, you've been generous with your time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And generous giving your books away as well.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Thank you very much, Terry.
Speaker B:That's the book, so look out for that.
Speaker B:You'll see that available on Amazon quite soon.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Well, as always, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for bearing your time.
Speaker A:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker B:And also for me with you, Terry.
Speaker B:Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker A:The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.
