What can driving instructors do?
Today’s chat is all about taking a good, hard look at what’s going wrong in our driving instructor world—and guess what? We're not pointing fingers at everyone else! We’re diving into three big issues: road deaths, the driving test backlog, and the importance of continuing professional development (CPD). Instead of playing the blame game, we’re putting the spotlight on what *we* can do to make our industry better. From sharing insights on reducing road deaths to practical steps for improving test pass rates and encouraging CPD participation, we’re all about proactive solutions! So buckle up and join us for a fun and insightful ride as we celebrate our fourth anniversary with some serious reflections and a few laughs along the way!
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Celebrating a fantastic four years, the latest episode of the Instructor Podcast dives deep into the challenges facing driving instructors today. This special anniversary episode features a reunion with Bob Martin, the very first guest of the show, and together they explore three major issues currently plaguing the driving instruction industry: road deaths, the driving test backlog, and the need for continuous professional development (CPD) among instructors. Instead of pointing fingers, Terry and Bob focus on actionable solutions that instructors can implement to make a real difference. They discuss the importance of taking responsibility and how each instructor can contribute to reducing road fatalities and improving the overall quality of driver education. With engaging anecdotes and some light-hearted banter, they emphasize the idea that while the industry faces significant challenges, positive change starts with each individual instructor taking proactive steps in their teaching methods and professional growth.
In this lively chat, Terry and Bob not only reflect on the past four years of the podcast but also challenge listeners to think critically about their roles as driving instructors. They delve into the practical aspects of reducing road deaths through better training techniques, which includes fostering critical thinking in learners rather than rote memorization of rules. This episode serves as both a celebration of the podcast's journey and a call to action for instructors to commit to their own professional development and the safety of their students. Tune in for an episode filled with insights, humor, and a shared vision for a safer driving future!
Takeaways:
- This anniversary episode reflects on the growth and impact of the Instructor Podcast over the last four years in shaping better driving instructors.
- Terry and Bob discuss three major issues facing the driving industry today and emphasize the importance of taking personal responsibility to address these issues.
- The conversation highlights the significance of coaching in driving education as a way to develop better decision-making skills in learners, not just rote memorization.
- Listeners are encouraged to engage with continuing professional development (CPD) opportunities to enhance their teaching methods and improve road safety.
- Terry shares personal anecdotes about practical lessons that can enhance learner confidence and skills, illustrating the importance of real-world experience in driving education.
- The podcast stresses that while the industry faces many challenges, instructors can influence positive change by leading by example and fostering a culture of safety and responsibility.
Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking.
Speaker B:With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker A:About what drives them.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast four Year Anniversary.
Speaker A:This is a show that's been helping you become more awesome driving instructors and run better driving school businesses over the last four years.
Speaker A:And as has been the case for the last four years, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook.
Speaker A:I have been genuinely delighted to be part of this journey, but I'm even more delighted that you have chosen to join me on it, especially today because you've got another special episode.
Speaker A:Because those of you who have been listening for years will know that every year I like to do an anniversary episode with Bob Martin.
Speaker A: Because way back in: Speaker A:So we like to make that a bit of an anniversary special.
Speaker A:And today we're taking a look at three things that are wrong with our industry.
Speaker A:But instead of blaming everyone else, we're looking at what we can do as driving instructors.
Speaker A:So we take a look at road def and how we can help reduce road def.
Speaker A:We're looking at the driving test backlog and what we can do to reduce that.
Speaker A:And we're looking at how we can encourage more instructors to taking part in cpd.
Speaker A:And we're doing it all without trying to blame anyone else.
Speaker A:Admittedly, there's one or two slip ups, but we're looking at what we can do.
Speaker A:Now, this is the point where I normally take a moment to plug something like the website or the premium membership or the email or anything like that.
Speaker A:And yes, feel free to go and check all those out with the instructorpodcast.com but today I want to take a moment to thank you guys.
Speaker A:I want to thank you guys for your contribution to the show, whether that be as a guest or someone that shares a show, or maybe you've stopped me at a convention or an expo to tell me how the show's helped you.
Speaker A:Whether it's putting stuff into practice that we've spoke about on the show or if you have simply listened, I genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, want to take this opportunity to thank you.
Speaker A:Because it wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun if it was just me sat here by myself with no one else paying attention.
Speaker A:So sincerely thank you.
Speaker A:When you listen to the show, you'll hear me talk a little bit about this, but I've no idea what's coming up really.
Speaker A:But whatever we do, we're gonna have some fun doing it.
Speaker A:But for now, let's get stuck into the Show.
Speaker A:Happy anniversary, Bob, since you're at the podcast.
Speaker A:Anniversary.
Speaker A:Happy anniversary.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Five.
Speaker B:Who'd have thug it?
Speaker A:Well, technically four.
Speaker A:We're kicking off as fifth year.
Speaker A:I think we're going into year five.
Speaker B:You're going into your fifth year?
Speaker A:Into the fifth year.
Speaker B:Well, happy fourth birthday.
Speaker A:You know, it feels, feels longer.
Speaker A:I'm going to lie.
Speaker B:Well, if you look at the journey, I mean, you've, you know, you've come a long way.
Speaker B:I think it's probably fair to say that you, you've made a difference, you know, big time, to the, to the way people view the industry, the way they view road safety.
Speaker B:You know, last year's sort of theme, it's, it's got more people engaged in it and it's, it's, I think it's, it's, it's now it's the gold standard.
Speaker B:I've said this to you before, it's a gold standard for or driving instructor podcast, there's no doubt about it.
Speaker A:Do you remember Napster?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I've had a thought for about a year now and it's still in my head and I compare, I think of the instructor podcast as an as Napster for the instructor world.
Speaker A:Because when Napster came along, kicked the music industry in the balls and then Spotify and Amazon, Apple Music came along and Napster went out of business, but it was never there to be long.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm sure the people that beyond it want me to be long term.
Speaker A:It was never going to be there long term.
Speaker A:Something had to come along and kick the music industry in the balls to change it.
Speaker A:And I often look at the instructor podcast, think, am I Napster come along, keep the industry in the balls?
Speaker A:Do I now disappear?
Speaker A:You know, and it's, it's a bit like I'm a Napster or can I keep this, this rolling and keep reinventing it and keep bringing in new and fresh ideas?
Speaker A:Creativity is waning a little bit, I'll be honest with you, but we'll see.
Speaker B:There's only so far you can go with that, isn't there?
Speaker B:Only so far you can push and then you probably need a little bit of a rest to reset and then away you go.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:That's nice though, that you've, you've changed the theme each time that, you know, this, this, this series theme is going to be, or this season's theme is going to be this, that or the other.
Speaker B:So, and it's like, I mean, you've not just done that, but it's I think it's nice that it's had that, that push and I think the road safety thing was a good one and it's important, you know, it's, it's some, it's very easy to wave the flag and go, yay, look at this.
Speaker B: You know, in: Speaker B: Only: Speaker B:And it's, it's not because I'm, I get sad about it because it's, it's nothing to do with us.
Speaker B:I don't think it's not because driving instruction is better or that the testing is better.
Speaker B:It's just harder to kill yourself in a modern car with a seatbelt and airbags, side impact bars and crumple zones.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Anyway, sorry Bob, you know what, I.
Speaker A:Completely agree and I was talking about this somewhere recently that you've got this whole safe system principle which I'm going to try.
Speaker A:Remember, safe roads, safe vehicles, safe speeds, horse crash care and safe road users.
Speaker A:Well you look at all those, the roads are improving apart from poles but you know, the roads and road infrastructure is improving.
Speaker A:The post crash, well that's another debate for another day.
Speaker A:Post crash care is significantly improving.
Speaker A:The, Forget what I've said so far but all those things in that safe system are improving except road users and that's where we sit and you know, people can turn around and say, and I, this question asked a lot about coaching and you know, if we're doing client set and if we're doing coaching, you know, sure, we'd see this big impact in pass rate and I mean, yeah, but we know there's a 10% of the industry or maybe 20 at the most and the over 80% are off hiding away somewhere.
Speaker A:So it's not going to have that impact.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:It's, you know, there's still not enough evidence in the UK at least there's not enough evidence to prove one way or another whether coaching has an impact or not because there's not enough of us doing it and of those that are doing it, there's not enough of us doing it well enough to make a difference.
Speaker B:So I think that, that needs, that needs to be addressed.
Speaker B:But I'm sure we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll chew into that as we go through.
Speaker B:But you know, we, we need to be better at coaching because it's, it's not 17 to 22 year old males don't die on our roads because they can't Drive, they die on their roads because they make stupid decisions.
Speaker B:And it's in the decision making process now.
Speaker B:You know, there's a big movement within coaching about the goals for driving education.
Speaker B:Whilst it's a worthy thing, it becomes an agenda.
Speaker B:And if you're entering a coaching situation with an agenda, I'm afraid that's not coaching, it just isn't.
Speaker B:It's a form of it, but it's watered down by the fact that you've got an agenda that's not your coachee's agenda.
Speaker B:If they came with an agenda, that's different.
Speaker B:But what we need to do is to make drivers better at what they do, are less likely to make stupid errors like driving under the influence of drink or drugs or peer pressure.
Speaker B:Our propensity to take risk needs to be managed and 17 to 22 year olds are very, very happy to take risks.
Speaker B:You know, that's the people in our population that start sentences with watch this.
Speaker B:So that's not a good way to enter a safety critical environment.
Speaker B:So we need to help them to make better decisions.
Speaker B:That's the crux of it.
Speaker B:That's what coaching should be about.
Speaker B:It's empowering that individual and helping them learn in a meaningful way that speaks to who they are on this day, at this time, in this kind of weather, at this time of year, feeling the way we feel today.
Speaker B:Let's look at how that impacts on the decisions we're going to make.
Speaker B:Let's look at every decision we make and look at the advantages, look at the disadvantages and have them come up with what the right thing to do in those circumstances for themselves.
Speaker B:This has a huge, huge knock on effect on test results and it's something I noticed.
Speaker B:I noticed a massive reduction in the.
Speaker B:Why did you do that?
Speaker B:I just don't know.
Speaker B:Result after a test where they've got a clean sheet and one serious something I hear all the time from instruments.
Speaker B:Oh, really good driver, clean sheet.
Speaker B:It was all going great and then they just did something stupid.
Speaker B:I said, what did they say they did it for?
Speaker B:Well, they didn't know.
Speaker B:And the reason they did it is because they were trying their best to remember what they'd been told to do and it wouldn't come.
Speaker B:And then they just make a snap decision at the last second.
Speaker B:It's the wrong decision.
Speaker B:Bang.
Speaker B:One series done.
Speaker B:And it's because we're training by giving people things to remember.
Speaker B:Well, if you're given things to remember, you forget.
Speaker B:The thing I always use is 12 times table.
Speaker B:People can often Get a fair way through and they can remember the tune, but they can't remember the words because it was learning by rote, somebody else's idea that you had to remember.
Speaker B:And we need to use the same systems that help people decide what their religion or their politics are.
Speaker B:Well, you look at every angle and you work out what you like, what you don't like, what's good and what's not in your view, what's useful and what's not.
Speaker B:If we then add to that a conversation about risk management, what do you think the safest thing would be here?
Speaker B:Oh, when you're dealing with something, what would you do?
Speaker B:If it was dark, it was wet, it was icy, your friends were in the car dicking about and the radio was on.
Speaker B:What if you're not feeling very well?
Speaker B:What if you're a long way away from home and you're not feeling well?
Speaker B:What's your options?
Speaker B:And help them go through it.
Speaker B:Stop, stay overnight, get the bus home, get the train home, or drive in such a way that takes into account the way that you're feeling and the conditions that you're in.
Speaker B:And part of the condition you're in is the way you're feeling, the way you're thinking.
Speaker B:And having them examine those things, that's not arriving with an agenda, that's exploring possibilities and exploring the decision making process that underpins their behavior, their thoughts and their feelings.
Speaker B:So if we do that, it has an impact on the road deaths.
Speaker B:I'm convinced nobody be able to convince me otherwise.
Speaker B:If you're a better decision maker, you're less likely to be involved in a life threatening crash.
Speaker B:You know, it's the one that, the one I always use several times.
Speaker B:The one I always use is, I'll hear driving instructors say, never drive so fast that you cannot stop safely.
Speaker B:Well within the distance to be, you can see to be clear on your half of the road.
Speaker B:So that's great.
Speaker B:Why, why should I?
Speaker B:My dad doesn't do that, why should I?
Speaker B:Because that's the rule.
Speaker B:Says who?
Speaker B:What if your learner says to you, well, I'm not keen on rules so you can kiss my ass, I'm not doing it.
Speaker B:Explain to me why I should.
Speaker B:Help me examine why that's a good idea.
Speaker B:So you then have a conversation about, well, let's have a little look at what happens if one driver just carries on regardless.
Speaker B:He's a dick flying in that situation, not really thinking about stuff.
Speaker B:The other driver, however, considers his options all the time.
Speaker B:He sees that car coming and Thinks, oh, he's going a bit quick, I'll knock some speed off.
Speaker B:Let's look at what happens if this car's still doing 60, the other one slows to 30.
Speaker B:Chances are there'll be less deaths in the car that's slowed down.
Speaker B:Because it isn't the speed that kills you, of course, it's this sudden stop at the end.
Speaker B:And if you're coming to a sudden stop from 30 now, yeah, you've got the inertia of the other car hitting you.
Speaker B:The other people are coming to a sudden stop at 60, their internal organs are going to hit that rib cage a bit harder and therefore they're more likely to die.
Speaker B:Now, let's say that this guy at 60 sees you, that car at the last minute breaks, gets down to 40 and this other car stops.
Speaker B:Let's look at what we think might happen there and just, you know, having an exploration of the physics of the damn thing.
Speaker B:That's why the golden rule is the golden rule.
Speaker B:Now you've explained that there's somebody going, yeah, bloody hell.
Speaker B:Yeah, that makes sense, that.
Speaker B:And it's locked away a part of who they are and they'll behave that way or they are more likely to behave that way.
Speaker B:So it would result in fewer test fails.
Speaker B:For the ones that fail, and for those of you who are listening who are interested in this, start making a note.
Speaker B:How many of your tests result in that?
Speaker B:How many of them come up with a clean sheet?
Speaker B:And that one serious or dangerous?
Speaker B:How many drivers have you put in for tests where you think, I'd put the money on, I'd put money on them, pass them, and then they don't start keeping a red one of it.
Speaker B:That's the learners, the decision that.
Speaker B:Leonard, what were you thinking?
Speaker B:The answer's always going to be the same.
Speaker B:If you're not training the right way, it's going to be, I don't know, I can't remember.
Speaker B:I don't know, I just.
Speaker B:Oh, I just panicked.
Speaker B:I just panicked.
Speaker B:That's in the moment when they're trying to remember what they've been taught to do, that's when that happens.
Speaker B:And I would have never believed anything that I've just said.
Speaker B:A few years ago, maybe 20 years ago, bullshit.
Speaker B:That just hit me, la la.
Speaker B:Nonsense.
Speaker B:But now I know it to be true because I look at the drivers that I'm training and I look at how they react to situations and then we'll have a chat.
Speaker B:Talk me through your thought processes there and that evaluating things and that's got to make a difference.
Speaker B:I have no hard scientific evidence, but I'm 100% convinced that it will make a difference.
Speaker A:Everyone eats ice cream dies, Bob.
Speaker A:That's all we can say.
Speaker B:But do they die as a result of eating the ice cream?
Speaker A:Well, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but it works.
Speaker A:Everyone that eats ice cream dies.
Speaker A:So I do think that ties in actually what we're talking about today because we're going to look at what we can do as instructors because it's really easy.
Speaker A:In fact, we talk about this and I'm going to steal your phrase, which is we point the finger of blame inwards because I think it's really easy to look at some of the problems we're facing and blame everyone else, even if it is their fault.
Speaker A:Yes, we can blame them, but we can't always do anything about it.
Speaker A:But we need to look at what we can do.
Speaker A:So we're talking a bit there about Raw Def and I agree with Henry who said in particular that remembering aspect and it took me a while to come with that, but I'm going to give an example I had recently and again, always interesting your thoughts on this, Bob, that a student had come from another instructor.
Speaker A:Not criticizing every instructor at all.
Speaker A:We're doing like an assessment drive because it was quite a way on and just doing sort of simple junctions.
Speaker A:It's going okay, but as soon as those junctions got either a bit more complex or they got a bit.
Speaker A:So there was something abnormal.
Speaker A:So a car parked in the wrong place or junction like that, it started struggling and it clicked for me pretty quickly when we were talking about it.
Speaker A:It's doing the MSPSL routine and he's trying to remember the MSPSL routine with a G in there somewhere as well.
Speaker A:And he's trying to remember it and then adapt it to this different situation.
Speaker A:He was struggling.
Speaker A:We pulled up, he had a chat about it and I says, look, just check it safe, tell people what you're doing and then do it.
Speaker A:And as soon as he just put that in, it started working because it's, it's less remembering and more problem solving.
Speaker A:So, yeah, just your thoughts on that.
Speaker A:Do you think that is kind of the issue we're dealing with?
Speaker B:Oh, 100%.
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker B:Because you know the phrase you pass your test and then you learn to drive.
Speaker B:That wasn't born error, nothing.
Speaker B:Because the reality is that that is what happens.
Speaker B:People pass the test and then they develop their own way of doing things, their own way of going about things.
Speaker B:Based on what they see others doing and based on getting away with things, doing stuff, and there being no consequence.
Speaker B:That was all right.
Speaker B:So an organism will keep doing what's been successful for it.
Speaker B:And I think it's vital that we look at this and look at the way we train people.
Speaker B:If we're training by rote.
Speaker B:An instruction is learning by rot, whether you like it or not.
Speaker B:It is, and it's effective, but it's nowhere near as effective as coaching.
Speaker B:And people often use the argument that coaching takes longer.
Speaker B:No, it doesn't.
Speaker B:Takes longer if you're not very good at it.
Speaker B:It doesn't take longer at all because you only ever do any lesson once and it's learned and it becomes part of who we are.
Speaker B:So we've got to get into the mind of the learner and help learning happen inside there.
Speaker B:And we learn when we make connections between what we know and what we don't know.
Speaker B:And in the questioning and the reflective process is where the connections are made with stuff that already exists in our map of the world, in our head, a neural pathway or synapses.
Speaker B:So the learning has to happen inside the head.
Speaker B:Now, that can happen with instruction, but we're maybe not really hitting exactly the right spot, connecting exactly the right dots in the brain where coaching puts them in a state of cognitive conflict where they've got to find those connections for themselves.
Speaker B:And it makes a radical difference.
Speaker B:I was observing a lesson last week and the MSMPSGL routine wasn't.
Speaker B:Wasn't really happening.
Speaker B:So we pull up.
Speaker B:Okay, let's have a little look at what happened at that last junction.
Speaker B:Talk me through what you did.
Speaker B:The learner gave the perfect explanation.
Speaker B:Nice little Q and A session.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Okay, pull away.
Speaker B:So didn't stop just before we pull away.
Speaker B:What are you expecting to happen here?
Speaker B:Well, they'll remember.
Speaker B:Okay, well, they didn't remember last time.
Speaker B:Why will they remember this time?
Speaker B:I'll remind them.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:What happens when you're down here?
Speaker B:Well, we'll get to that later.
Speaker B:Well, why not get to it now?
Speaker B:Why not get to it now?
Speaker B:That person's able to explain to you exactly what happened.
Speaker B:So I said, do you mind if I just.
Speaker B:No, no, not at all.
Speaker B:We'd set it up so that I could intervene.
Speaker B:I said, okay, you've just given me a fantastic explanation of what you should do.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:Well done, you.
Speaker B:Why didn't you do it?
Speaker B:Well, I forgot.
Speaker B:You forgot.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:What percentage of the time do you remember?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:Depends.
Speaker B:Depends on what?
Speaker B:And of course, once we start Scratching the surface.
Speaker B:Once there was other things to think about other than MSMPs, then it all fell apart.
Speaker B:So I said, well, it's not a satisfactory construct, is it?
Speaker B:I said, let's look at the junction.
Speaker B:What is it you're looking for in your mirror?
Speaker B:And then what are you looking here?
Speaker B:What are you.
Speaker B:So I said, a much simpler way of saying information is what we want.
Speaker B:We take it what's happening, what's around, we use that information and then we give information to other people.
Speaker B:So how can we do that?
Speaker B:It's so simple and you never have to alter it because if you're overtaken, MSPSL has to change.
Speaker B:It's like, I don't.
Speaker B:It's not very good system.
Speaker B:Well, that's for here, but there's a different version of it that you use here.
Speaker B:All right, Shit.
Speaker B:Which one is it then?
Speaker B:It's a nonsense when you look at it.
Speaker B:How is that supposed to work?
Speaker B:How's that supposed to make sense to somebody?
Speaker B:But I did it that way last time.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, but that was for here.
Speaker B:This is for now.
Speaker B:And on a Tuesday, you'll need to do it like this.
Speaker B:Might as well be that.
Speaker B:All right, Shit.
Speaker B:What day is it?
Speaker B:So by.
Speaker B:By entering into the thought process, that.
Speaker B:And then examining it and saying, well, that's not really working for you, is it?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Okay, what else could we do then?
Speaker B:So we try and teach them by getting them to regurgitate stuff that we know.
Speaker B:I don't want to know what.
Speaker B:What I already know because I already know that.
Speaker B:I want to know what's going on inside their head.
Speaker B:Talk me through what we're thinking here, what we're feeling, and we start getting different insights into what's going on in their head.
Speaker B:Well, what was I feeling?
Speaker B:I was a bit panicky.
Speaker B:Panicky about why?
Speaker B:Just there's such a lot.
Speaker B:This is the most common answer.
Speaker B:There's such a lot to do and I'm worried that I won't remember it.
Speaker B:All right, okay.
Speaker B:So if you've got a lot to think about, what could you do to help with that?
Speaker B:So let's tackle the thing that is the actual problem.
Speaker B:I'm feeling panicky.
Speaker B:Well, if you slowed down and this is where it's perfectly acceptable to give some input, if you slowed down more and slowed down earlier, would that help?
Speaker B:Well, it might.
Speaker B:Should we try it and see what happens?
Speaker B:Try it.
Speaker B:Oh, that's it.
Speaker B:By right click, save on that, you're done, it's finished, you'll never come back to it because it's locked into who they are.
Speaker B:All right?
Speaker B:So if I'm feeling a bit flustered, I've just slowed down.
Speaker B:Right, okay.
Speaker B:That's a tool I can use in the future.
Speaker B:That's going to come into play when we hit safety critical stuff and they're going to make better decisions which will lead to less deaths on the road because the deaths that are happening on our road are due to bad decisions.
Speaker B:Using the phone while you're driving is a common distraction.
Speaker B:They've got it down as why don't they change that headline A mobile phone.
Speaker B:Because that's what most of it is, using your mobile phone.
Speaker B:Why don't they just make every castle that it shuts off any mobile phone that's inside it.
Speaker B:A whole other argument.
Speaker B:Because the technology's there to make that happen.
Speaker B:But I mean it's not used probably.
Speaker B:I've got a super duper new radio on my naked old van.
Speaker B:That thing will let me message while I'm driving.
Speaker B:I mean I don't, but I could.
Speaker B:You can use Facebook and stuff.
Speaker B:That's ridiculous.
Speaker B:And I'm not breaking the law because it's in a, in a radio, it's in a.
Speaker B:It's not handheld device.
Speaker B:That's a nonsense.
Speaker B:So we need some of that sort of.
Speaker B:But it would reduce deaths, it would reduce the number of pass silly fails at test and it would make the roads a safer place.
Speaker B:But then of course you've got to mix with all the idiots that are out there already.
Speaker B:How do you influence them?
Speaker B:By example.
Speaker A:This is it.
Speaker A:When we're thinking about the number of road deaths, it's all about looking at what we can do because we can't always impact everyone else.
Speaker A:We can't control what everyone else does.
Speaker A:But that doesn't mean we can't do anything.
Speaker A:So like you've just spoke about there, we can have this, this other influence on our learners rather than just telling them what to do.
Speaker A:You know, one of the things I stopped doing a few years ago, I think it was after first speaking to you was last minute test tip advice.
Speaker A:We pull up outside testing here.
Speaker A:Here's some tips for you.
Speaker A:So what am I doing?
Speaker A:I'm giving them more things to remember, you know, and I know that's going more into the test side of it, but it's like we don't want this.
Speaker B:It comes from a good place.
Speaker B:It's a desire.
Speaker B:No, but it isn't actually helping.
Speaker A:But the other thing I'm going to throw in there in terms of what we can do to reduce road death is increase the amount of experience I get now the risk we run here.
Speaker A:And I Learned this from Dr.
Speaker A:Elizabeth Box and she tells me all the time, because I think I might go too far with this sometimes.
Speaker A:But the more skill we give students, especially on the lads, more skill we've given, the more we build the confidence up and the more they get that, that brain power of oh, I can do anything now.
Speaker A:So there's, there's a, we've got to be a little careful there, but I, I think the more skill and more experience we can give them.
Speaker A:And I've told this before, but one of my favorites, a multi story car park lesson.
Speaker A:Go top a multi story car park, find somewhere to park, be empty.
Speaker A:So you got all that choice then you've got to do it on every level going down.
Speaker A:And obviously the further down you get, you wind up parking between park cars.
Speaker A:So think of the, the confidence and the skill of that driver.
Speaker A:If they can do that multi story car part lesson now, all right, that might not be the thing that leads to preventing road death, but it's going to prevent crashes.
Speaker B:Well, you're right, but it's, it's the problem.
Speaker B:It's not a problem as such, but we don't want to give them too much confidence because they're already happy to accept a ton of risk and it's something we can't eradicate that other.
Speaker B:Otherwise who's going to fight the next war?
Speaker B:You know, if you create a generation that's risk averse.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Take this rifle.
Speaker B:No, you take the bloody rifle.
Speaker B:So, so we've got to look at the situations where they're happening.
Speaker B:You're right, you know, scrapes and multi story car parks, it's not easily avoided.
Speaker B:But you can give them that skill, you can help them develop the skill.
Speaker B:A thing that I really like to do, especially with young lads or if I've got, you know, someone, any learner that I feel is a little overly coming, I know for a fact and I'll step my life on it, they're gonna get that car after they pass that test and they're gonna drive their car, blab out with full of aminates.
Speaker B:That's what I did.
Speaker B:It's what you did.
Speaker B:That's what every male that's between the edge of the 17 and 22 year old are likely to do.
Speaker B:So I know they're gonna do that.
Speaker B:There's nothing on this planet, no force on this planet, except maybe their mother, but she'd need to be in the car that's going to stop them doing it.
Speaker B:So I need to help them do it safer.
Speaker B:So I'll talk to them about, you know, what does weight transfer do to the car and I'll have them experience it.
Speaker B:And I'll have them experience going into a corner and just setting just enough gas to keep the car at the same speed.
Speaker B:And notice what the difference is to the car.
Speaker B:Now that's a saving technique if you've overcooked it, because that's what they're going to do, they're going to overcook it.
Speaker B:Okay, so what do you do?
Speaker B:What do you slam a shit ton of brake on, get till you get close to the corner off there and then put enough gas on to balance the car and you're more likely to make it round.
Speaker B:Maybe some scraps on the paint and what have you, but you're not going through the wall that's on the corner.
Speaker B:So these are real world skills and things we can introduce as part of the natural order of things.
Speaker B:Okay, let's look at how we do this.
Speaker B:Let's look at what the, what the most.
Speaker B:And if you say to them, do you want me to teach you the corner safer?
Speaker B:I mean, not really, mate, no.
Speaker B:Would you want me to teach you the corner faster than your mates?
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:Now we're listening.
Speaker B:So it's finding that thing that motivates them intrinsically, internally to want to do it.
Speaker B:And that's what coaching's all about.
Speaker B:It's having that person in a position where they will happily set their own goals, where that we do invoke the curiosity because instruction doesn't invoke curiosity.
Speaker B:Some instructors are very good at instruction and they've developed it in such a way that it does pique people's interest and gets them involved and more power to them, you know, will be their candidates to become world class coaches if they would just see it.
Speaker B:So we've got to get them into that, into that mode where they're happy to take ownership of their own journey.
Speaker B:Once you get to that point, then it just becomes a joy training them.
Speaker B:It's just so easy.
Speaker B:Anyway, I lost the train.
Speaker B:I thought that I went off on a bit of a tangent.
Speaker B:Not like me.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, no.
Speaker A:You did mention earlier that I also think is relevant here because you mentioned, like, they'll drive this way unless the mum's in the car.
Speaker A:And that's a conversation, you know, this is me projecting my thing on the lesson rather than them.
Speaker A:But this is something I try and bring in lessons.
Speaker A:I'll ask them, you know, how are you going to drive when your mum's in the car?
Speaker A:How will you drive when the examiner's in the car?
Speaker A:How will you drive when your mates are in the car?
Speaker A:And usually they answer them differently.
Speaker A:And then you get to have the awesome conversation about why.
Speaker A:Why will it be different when your mate's in the car, when your mum's in the car?
Speaker A:How important are those conversations, do you think?
Speaker B:Well, I think they're 100% important.
Speaker B:It's 100% important.
Speaker B:They're very important.
Speaker B:And we can't expect them to drive in one style because that's not how the world works.
Speaker B:There will be different things that your mom in the car, your mates in the car, the examiner in the car.
Speaker B:If you're tired, if you're hungry, if you're dehydrated, what impact will that have?
Speaker B:You know, if you're bursting for the toilet, what will that do?
Speaker B:What does it do to your concentration levels?
Speaker B:What will we do to account for that?
Speaker B:So all we have to do is help them to develop strategies for these different scenarios.
Speaker B:And once they get good at developing strategies for a particular set of scenarios, we'll start expanding it to other things.
Speaker B:And it's the curiosity.
Speaker B:That's where I was.
Speaker B:I just reminded myself, we need to invoke this curiosity because it's inbuilt in all human beings.
Speaker B:We all have it.
Speaker B:I've had a couple of occasions where people on workshops have done, have said, well, I'm not that curious, Bob.
Speaker B:So all right, then, let me ask you something.
Speaker B:You're in a restaurant, the waiter comes across.
Speaker B:The last time you're in a restaurant, the waiter came across with a plate in his hand and a tea towel and he put it down and said, careful, that's hot.
Speaker B:What did you do the last time you passed a sign that said wet paint, what did you do?
Speaker B:You were drawn to it.
Speaker B:It's your subconscious, your map of the world, saying to yourself, how hot.
Speaker B:I need to find out.
Speaker B:How I need to know.
Speaker B:And you'll bear the pain to find it out on the last one.
Speaker B:Well, you just told you that.
Speaker B:Why did you do it?
Speaker B:You did it because your curiosity just got the better of you.
Speaker B:Some of the wet pain thing we need to know.
Speaker B:And it's that and I wonder at the world and possibilities, especially in your teenage years, you know, you're finding your own feet and you're finding your own way in the world, so you're learning to develop what you think about stuff.
Speaker B:So it's the perfect time for coaching.
Speaker B:Well, what do you think about this and what makes you think that?
Speaker B:What made you say that?
Speaker B:What made you do that?
Speaker B:I'm not saying.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because that's very judgmental.
Speaker B:You think that was the right speed to travel there?
Speaker B:I do, yeah.
Speaker B:What are you basing that on?
Speaker B:I'm not saying what it isn't.
Speaker B:And you shouldn't do that because you fail a test for that.
Speaker B:Did you?
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So I better stop doing that.
Speaker B:I'll pass my test or they'll ask the question, would I film a test for that?
Speaker B:Because of course, the test focus.
Speaker B:Why wouldn't you be?
Speaker B:Isn't that why you spend your money, to pass your test?
Speaker B:Doesn't matter what we think.
Speaker B:It's what they think.
Speaker B:I'm doing this for laps.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:What do you think of this?
Speaker B:What do you think of that?
Speaker B:What's your thoughts on this?
Speaker B:Do you observe the blue car there?
Speaker B:If you were driving the white car, what would you have thought?
Speaker B:Or if we get involved in the situation, what do you think that other driver thought you were going to do?
Speaker B:Oh, I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So would he be happy to enter a situation where you're not really sure?
Speaker B:Do we know who he is?
Speaker B:Who she is?
Speaker B:Could be an accident.
Speaker B:You know, they're all on the loose there till they get caught.
Speaker B:What if he's a psychopath?
Speaker B:How do you know?
Speaker B:What told you he was going to stop?
Speaker B:What told you he was going to go?
Speaker B:Well, there's some telltale signs.
Speaker B:And then you can then, you know, perhaps even bring in your own experience.
Speaker B:Well, in my experience, people who do that, the body language of the car they've told me was coming, but didn't tell you.
Speaker B:Let's just pull over.
Speaker B:I'll go around the block and just.
Speaker B:Let's just observe here.
Speaker B:Observe cars coming.
Speaker B:Which one's going to go, which one's going to stop?
Speaker B:So you can recognize these things, you know, simple stuff like you're approaching long, straight road.
Speaker B:You're approaching a crossroads.
Speaker B:We're on the main road, two side roads.
Speaker B:Is that car coming out or not?
Speaker B:So I don't think so.
Speaker B:Okay, how did you know?
Speaker B:And that's this little telltale sign where they were looking at me.
Speaker B:The car was completely stationed.
Speaker B:What makes you uneasy?
Speaker B:It's when you see the car wheel just moving.
Speaker B:They're looking at you, but the wheels still move if I'm not looking at you.
Speaker B:And the Wheels are moving.
Speaker B:You can be pretty sure they're coming.
Speaker B:So there's all these things to, you know.
Speaker B:It's not just a random event that happens just here.
Speaker B:There's a whole series of events that lead to it.
Speaker B:And it's helping them explore that they're going to become better decision makers.
Speaker B:And if you're a better decision maker, you're a better driver.
Speaker A:I'll tell you what I say when I'm feeling a bit sarcastic to them.
Speaker A:It'll be, how old you're not driving that car?
Speaker A:And then they'll go, well, don't.
Speaker A:Oh, why do you trust them?
Speaker A:And then you can see they go, oh, okay.
Speaker A:Would you trust them with your phone?
Speaker A:And they'll say no.
Speaker A:So why do you trust him with my car?
Speaker B:Not my car.
Speaker A:Last couple of things I want to touch on there and just a random recommendation for people.
Speaker A:If you're curious about curiosity, play a game called the Stanley Paradox.
Speaker A:You get it on PC and PlayStation, all sorts of stuff.
Speaker A:I'm not going to describe it because it'll.
Speaker A:It'll spoil it, but genuinely, you will learn more about yourself as a person by playing the game the Stanley Paradox.
Speaker A:And it's easy.
Speaker A:Anyone can play it.
Speaker A:It will drive you nuts and you will learn more about yourself than any therapy session ever could.
Speaker A:But I think the last thing I want to mention is specifically around the road def.
Speaker A:And I'm sure you're aware of this, Bob, but is the honest truth.
Speaker A:I think this is a great resource for kicking off those conversations we mentioned, those awkward ones about seatbelts and phones and distractions and stuff like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you're listening to this and you're uncomfortable about starting those conversations, the honest truth is a great way to interject that.
Speaker A:And just to chip in and mention this, that you do get the honest truth included as part of your membership if you sign up to instruct the Podcast premium, the top tier.
Speaker A:So there you go.
Speaker A:Got do that.
Speaker A:You get the entry roof included, free of charge.
Speaker B:Win, win.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:It is difficult, I think, to, to begin with.
Speaker B:I found it tricky when I was first sort of making the switch from instruction to coaching to ask the questions that are really meaningful and they're properly drilling.
Speaker B:But the more I do it, the, the, the simpler they become.
Speaker B:And it's just like when they're putting their seat belt on, you know, I don't do cockpit drills, that sort of stuff anymore.
Speaker B:So it just, just get everything adjusted so that you're comfortable and you feel that you're ready to drive the car as they're putting the seatbelt on.
Speaker B:I said, what would you do?
Speaker B:One of your mates wouldn't put that seatbelt on.
Speaker B:We're about to drive.
Speaker B:What would you say?
Speaker B:Well, I'll tell me.
Speaker B:He has to put it on.
Speaker B:What if he told you to bugger off?
Speaker B:And I love playing the what if game, what if.
Speaker B:So when I'm doing instructor training I tend not to use roleplay nowhere near as much as I used to.
Speaker B:And I'll just say to the pdi, okay, but what if your learner said, what if your learner did?
Speaker B:What if your learned learner thought, what if you got resistance there?
Speaker B:What would you do?
Speaker B:Well, I'd do this.
Speaker B:Okay, try it.
Speaker B:Okay, well what if that didn't work?
Speaker B:Then what would you do?
Speaker B:Then what would you do?
Speaker B:And it's, it's a methodology that I'm using when I'm training drivers is a situation.
Speaker B:What are you going to do?
Speaker B:What if that doesn't happen?
Speaker B:So we need a driving plan based on what we can see, what we can't see in the corner, in driveways, what we might reasonably expect at this time of day, this time of year, this kind of weather in this kind of area.
Speaker B:And then what's your strategy if that plan doesn't plan out the way you thought?
Speaker B:That's the police method of training and it's great because it works.
Speaker B:And I'm a big fan of the more advanced stuff, IPSCA information, position, speed, gear, acceleration, you never have to alter that stays the same all the time.
Speaker B:And information is something that runs through everything.
Speaker B:So yeah, so it's those conversations become easier and you get some interesting results sometimes asking people, it's an interesting viewpoint.
Speaker B:I wonder why they think that.
Speaker B:And it's because they come to us pre programmed with lots of thoughts about things, often that they've learned from their parents.
Speaker B:And remember their parents are people who pass that test and then learn to drive.
Speaker B:So they've learned by picking up other people's bad habits and it's difficult for us to shield them from that.
Speaker B:But all we can do really is help them to be sure of their own decisions and then have them and us and we're very bad at this.
Speaker B:As an industry lead by example, I see ADIs driving like dicks a lot.
Speaker B:And I see ADIs when I'm observing lessons, driving a pupil to a location to do something and driving sloppy ass.
Speaker B:You know, those of you out there who are thinking of becoming driving instructor trainers and you Want to use roleplayer.
Speaker B:The first role you need to learn is the error free drive.
Speaker B:And if you can't do that, you can't be a trainer who uses roleplay because there'll be accidental mistakes in there with the ones that you're simulating.
Speaker B:So it's, it's, that's how we do so.
Speaker B:And if you want to see the impact our actions can have on other road users, next time you're in a queue of traffic and there's somebody waiting to get out, just let them out.
Speaker B:Look what it does to them, then observe.
Speaker B:Do they let somebody else out?
Speaker B:Because they will.
Speaker B:And then will that person let somebody out?
Speaker B:So they've learned to be courteous.
Speaker B:Just by somebody being courteous to them, you know, I had a crazy bloody young Uncle Philip, the same sort of thing.
Speaker B:It's always hard wall Bobby, always hard wall Bobby for somebody to punch you in the face if you're smiling at them.
Speaker B:What if you're smiling at somebody, it takes away some of the regression.
Speaker B:Not always buddies, just try it.
Speaker B:And he's right.
Speaker B:So we respond to good driving by being better at what we do.
Speaker B:We look at that and think, all right, okay, yeah, like meat situations, you know, often you'll let somebody through, they'll let somebody else through further down the road.
Speaker B:So we can influence the great unwashed.
Speaker B:I mean, I know that's.
Speaker B:What is it now?
Speaker B:20, is it 30, 32 million drivers?
Speaker B:I think we have.
Speaker B:I think that's right.
Speaker B:There's only 40,000 of us.
Speaker B:But if we all drove perfectly, it would have an impact.
Speaker B:If we then produce people who drove correctly because they thought it was the right way to do it, then surely that would make a difference.
Speaker B:Yet we all throw our hands up the angle.
Speaker B:No, to do with me.
Speaker B:It's everything to do with you, mate.
Speaker B:Everything to do with you.
Speaker B:We are the reason we have the driving standard.
Speaker B:We have.
Speaker B:It's like we are the reason we have the government, we have.
Speaker B:We are the reason that we have Brexit.
Speaker B:So we have input into it, but we choose not to.
Speaker B:You know, and it's.
Speaker B:If we are serious about it and as an industry we aren't, then we should do something about it.
Speaker B:And it's dead simple.
Speaker B:Just do what you're meant to do, say what you're going to do and then do what you said you'd do.
Speaker B:But we don't.
Speaker A:I think there's two types of driver out there.
Speaker A:I think there's the type that think they're a far superior driver to everyone else.
Speaker A:And I think there's a type that openly admit I wouldn't pass a test nowadays and I think they're both the problem.
Speaker A:But just touching back on your suggestion of influencing people, do you know what?
Speaker A:I do a similar trick which is when you're in that queue of traffic and I do it a lot with learners, move forward 6 inch and then they watch everyone else behind move forward 6 inch as well, they just, they copy.
Speaker A:But let's move on a little bit because we've spoke a lot about sort of there about what, what we can do in terms of impacting road safety post test.
Speaker A:But let's talk a little bit about the test now.
Speaker A:I know some of this all overlaps, but there's still a ridiculous backlog.
Speaker A:You know, some parts of areas you can't even book a test.
Speaker A:My local area can, but it's six months away and I think I want to start this off by looking.
Speaker A:I say what we can do to reduce this waiting list, but I'm going to start off by saying a phrase, Bob, I'll let you respond to it.
Speaker A:I still hear it quite a lot now, which is can teach them all they want.
Speaker A:But I can't control what they do on tests.
Speaker A:That's down to them.
Speaker B:Yes, you can.
Speaker B:You can't control everything.
Speaker B:Quite right.
Speaker B:But we can make a monstrous difference, a monstrous difference.
Speaker B:If you're just sending them for tests with a shit ton of stuff to remember, well, guess what, they're going to forget some of it.
Speaker B:But if you help somebody to look at situations, assess, decide and act and evaluate the effectiveness of that while they're training, they're much less likely to do that stupid thing that causes the fail that then causes them to go, well, I don't know.
Speaker B:And if you're not sure if you're that type of trainer or not, ask yourself the question.
Speaker B:When you pull the learner over to discuss a mistake they've made, can they tell you what they should have done?
Speaker B:If they can tell you what they should have done, well, they just forgot to do it then, didn't they?
Speaker B:And your methodology is flawed.
Speaker B:Now if you told me that 20 years ago, I'd have said that's nonsense.
Speaker B:But that's the simple fact.
Speaker B:That methodology is flawed because you're giving them things to remember and they're not remembering.
Speaker B:So that's to do with the method.
Speaker B:It's not your fault because it's the way you were trained.
Speaker B:It's the way I was trained and I led to believe it was the way, the only way to do things.
Speaker B:I got really good at it.
Speaker B:But then I would say the same thing.
Speaker B:Well, if they forget on test, that's not what we're doing.
Speaker B:It's everything to do with you.
Speaker B:Everything to do with you.
Speaker B:If they're forgetting on test, your methodology is flawed, you need to do something about it.
Speaker A:I agree completely, actually.
Speaker A:But I think that we have kind of covered a lot of that.
Speaker A:It ties into the road death.
Speaker A:You know, if we can.
Speaker A:I think if we brought that in, everything we spoke about there, that would improve the pass rate and it would reduce the number of road deaths.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker A:I think there's other stuff we can do as well to, to help with this test situation as it is.
Speaker A:And I think of the stuff that we put out there, so you spoke about, we want to be the best drivers.
Speaker A:I think we can be a lot better in public as well.
Speaker A:In terms of social media, for example, in putting out positive.
Speaker B:Trigger me now.
Speaker A:Look, trust me, I'm holding back.
Speaker A:You know, putting out positive, informative, constructive posts rather than a lot of the crap that is power there and actually putting stuff out that benefits and being honest with people and, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:I think what we see a lot is just mourning about it from instructors.
Speaker A:And I get it, and I get why instructors are struggling.
Speaker A:I'm not mean to dismiss that.
Speaker A:No, I think we need to be a bit more positive and constructive.
Speaker B:100%, Terry.
Speaker B:I couldn't agree more.
Speaker B:And I think part of the problem is the anonymity of social media.
Speaker B:Even though you're not necessarily anonymous.
Speaker B:I'm not a big fan of the posting anonymous.
Speaker B:If people need to post anonymous, there's something wrong with the culture within the group and that should be tackled now.
Speaker B:I appreciate that.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes there's not that many admin and this, that and the other, but it's difficult.
Speaker B:But there's a.
Speaker B:There's a part of human nature that seems to want to try and make themselves feel better by making other people feel worse.
Speaker B:That's part of the human condition and it's not attractive, but it's in us all.
Speaker B:But we have to fight against it.
Speaker B:You know, you'll never make yourself 100% guarantee you this.
Speaker B:You will never make yourself feel better by making other people feel worse.
Speaker B:The way you make yourself feel better and the way you put a bit of sunshine in your life is by being nice and helping others and scrolling past the stuff that infuriates you.
Speaker B:I see Tons of stuff every day on Facebook.
Speaker B:I think I just scroll by.
Speaker B:I'm not going to make any difference to that person.
Speaker B:Or if I'm going to engage, I do it by being ridiculously nice.
Speaker B:And that really pisses them off, which I suppose makes me as bad as them.
Speaker B:But it's tricky, isn't it?
Speaker B:We do need to lead by example, not only in the way we drive, but in the way we conduct ourselves.
Speaker B:I see, I see instructors at test centers wearing shorts and flip flops.
Speaker B:Not very professional, is it?
Speaker B:Now I'll wear jeans and a T shirt because that's the sort of era we live in.
Speaker B:But when I was first in the stud, I wore a collar and tie every day because that was what being professional was seen as in my eyes anyway.
Speaker B:So we've got a better job to do.
Speaker B:We do need to be better at what we do.
Speaker B:We're now starting to earn sensible money, so we now need that adapt accordingly.
Speaker B:We now need to behave in the manner of somebody who earns that kind of money.
Speaker B:So, you know, we're earning the same sort of money as teachers do now, so we need to behave that way.
Speaker B:We need to also take our own development seriously.
Speaker B: ow, I passed my part three in: Speaker B:You know, the world has changed dramatically.
Speaker B:I've kept up, but a lot of driving don't.
Speaker B:I've been doing some stuff for people recently.
Speaker B:It's their first CPD they've ever done in 20 years.
Speaker B:Why is that?
Speaker B:Because we're not forced to do it.
Speaker B:I'm not saying we should be forced to do it, but, you know, it's, it's.
Speaker B:We need to find a better way.
Speaker B:Mock testing is not the answer.
Speaker B:DBS here.
Speaker B:Where's the point?
Speaker B:If your methodology is bloody flawed and you're giving people a shit ton of stuff to remember and they forget going to be the same on a mock test that changes nothing.
Speaker B:It just, it just alters the number of tests they take before they pass.
Speaker B:It's ridiculous.
Speaker B:Mock testing does nothing except put them under the pressure where that's not a.
Speaker B:You know, it's the methodology that's flawed, not the test.
Speaker B:Although there's a lot of things we could say about the test.
Speaker A:I think it's Colin Stewart from the dvsa, the, the recent conference convention.
Speaker A:Whichever one.
Speaker A:And I was like, please stop with a nonsense about the top 10 reasons people fail.
Speaker A:That's not the reason, that's the box that you need to tick.
Speaker A:It's not the reason, but why we failed them.
Speaker B:The problem is the method that underpins it.
Speaker B:The route to test is not providing them with the skills for real life that would prevent them failing the test.
Speaker B:Passing the test should be a byproduct of what we do, and it should be easy for a learner if they're being coached properly.
Speaker B:Now, I know everybody's going to be there where you would say, coaching the answer pod.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would, because it is.
Speaker A:It's the thing.
Speaker A:We recorded an episode for my premium membership, I think it was last year, talking about the struggles you had with coaching when you first died.
Speaker A:Because I think that's something else we can do in the industry, is own that.
Speaker A:And rather than go out there and profess to be little miss or Mr.
Speaker A:Fucking Perfect, where nothing was ever hard for me, go out there and own it and say, I still struggle with this sometimes, you know, giving myself credit again here.
Speaker A:And you know, I don't like doing that.
Speaker A:But it's something that I try and do.
Speaker A:I talk to it on my Friday fails that I do when I talk about on these podcasts.
Speaker A:This is what I struggle with still, and I'll own that.
Speaker A:And that doesn't mean I'm not good at what I do.
Speaker A:It's owning that this is something I struggle with and I'm getting better.
Speaker A:And I think there's too many people out there that pretend or act as if they never do anything that isn't perfect and belittle everyone that might not be up to their standard.
Speaker A:There can only be one best trainer in the world.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's the fact.
Speaker A:You can't have two.
Speaker A:There can only be one.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:What does that mean?
Speaker A:That no one else is allowed to be a trainer or no one else is allowed to be instructor?
Speaker A:We're all on different chapters of the same book.
Speaker A:Sometimes different.
Speaker A:Different books.
Speaker A:And actually this is the other part I'm getting on a rant now.
Speaker A:This is the other part I'm going to get on.
Speaker A:I think we have to look at which book we're on.
Speaker A:Because if you are on the book of why you were driving instructor to make the road safer, then great.
Speaker A:This is the stuff that you want to do.
Speaker A:If you're on the book of.
Speaker A:I'm on the driving instructor because I want to earn some money and that's all I'm bothered about.
Speaker A:Bucker off.
Speaker A:I don't care.
Speaker A:You don't listen.
Speaker A:You're listening to the wrong podcast.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:I can't do anything about them people.
Speaker A:But if you're genuinely in this to make the road safer.
Speaker A:You can't allow yourself to have the defeatist attitude so that when you put that post up and you get criticism from the public and you get a criticism of Radii saying, oh, what you're on about, Bob, with your coaching nonsense, you have to be able to still put that post out or still come on this podcast and talk or do whatever it is that you're doing and not let that negativity affect you as well.
Speaker A:Which is hard.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And, you know, I was.
Speaker B:I was tasked with the job of Paul McCardell, the MD at LDC, who was a great friend and mentor.
Speaker B:We were faced with trying to get all of our instructors to coach.
Speaker B:So, of course, the question that's going to be asked is, why should I?
Speaker B:Everything's fine for me now.
Speaker B:I'm earning a good living.
Speaker B:I'm getting what I want, I'm working the hours I want on the days I want.
Speaker B:Why should I bother with this?
Speaker B:So to convince them, we sort of looked at, well, what are the advantages?
Speaker B:What are the disadvantages?
Speaker B:Well, by just embracing the methodology now, there are three parts to it.
Speaker B:Obviously, our way of being who we are, this probably has to change a little bit because it's a relationship of equals.
Speaker B:We have to have an unconditional, positive regard for the learner.
Speaker B:We have to stop using judgmental language.
Speaker B:Things aren't good or bad or better or worse.
Speaker B:We have an outcome that we were pursuing and an outcome we got.
Speaker B:How do we turn the outcome we got into what we wanted?
Speaker B:And it's a joint thing, deciding what the outcome is we want.
Speaker B:So if you're dealing in outcomes, it becomes a lot less judgmental.
Speaker B:So we have that way of being.
Speaker B:We then have a coaching methodology grows, the one that I tend to use.
Speaker B:But they're all equal.
Speaker B:They're just the same thing.
Speaker B:It's a managed conversation to help the coachee become empowered and involved in the thing and setting their own goals.
Speaker B:And then as our coaching skills, listening, questioning, a different kind of questioning, questions that help the coach learn something.
Speaker B:If we do that, that's a lot of work.
Speaker B:That's a lot of changes to go through.
Speaker B:Why should I bother?
Speaker B:And the cohort that are on now, the first cohort in the certificate in coaching, some are further on than others and some are chopping it a bit, trying to get away and get going.
Speaker B:And I understand that, but I've just introduced coaching contracts, targets for lessons and reflective logs.
Speaker B:We see where we are with that.
Speaker B:That then Lets me take a snapshot or help them take a snapshot, how good I am at these various things.
Speaker B:How often does this happen?
Speaker B:How often does that happen?
Speaker B:So by going through the pain to get to becoming proficient at coaching, what are the benefits?
Speaker B:It seems like, oh, a lot of downsides there and I'm already doing all right.
Speaker B:Well, you'll be known for having that approach, that way of being, which will generate more interest in your services.
Speaker B:You should have less fails at tests, so you should have a higher first time pass rate.
Speaker B:It should lead to a lower number of lessons, which everybody looks at and thinks that's commercial suicide, but it's not because they tell more people.
Speaker B:And once that starts to happen, demand for your services increases, which then means you'll get a waiting list and ultimately your price goes up.
Speaker B:So you'll be earning more money, you'll have a higher first time pass rate, lower number of lessons, people will be interested in coming to you, you'll be earning more money, possibly working less hours.
Speaker B:And the big plus, your learners will feel great about the process and so will you.
Speaker B:And that's the big plus is the impact you're having on people because it has an impact outside of driving.
Speaker B:They'll learn to be self sufficient.
Speaker B:They'll learn that their opinion is valued for the first time probably in their life, especially if they're 17 year old males.
Speaker B:Nobody listens to 17 year old males, do they?
Speaker B:Because they're idiots.
Speaker B:I know because I was one.
Speaker B:So it starts to have an impact on them, which in turn has an impact on you.
Speaker B:So these people who post on Facebook negatively, they never feel better from that.
Speaker B:They're still angry people.
Speaker B:But if you're helping raise somebody up, it raises you up too.
Speaker B:So that's the big benefit, the way it makes you feel, as well as earning more money and having high demand for your services and gaining better job satisfaction, producing safer drivers that are going to make the world a safer place.
Speaker B:Wow, sorry I went on there, but.
Speaker A:You know, I like it.
Speaker A:But you know what, before I move on to the last topic, I'm going to make one final comment, which is I think that you do the post, if you care, do the post.
Speaker A:So talk about the fact, the danger mobile phone.
Speaker A:You talk about the danger of not wearing a seatbelt, whatever it is, because you'll never know the people whose lives you save.
Speaker A:So there may just be one person that reads that post and goes, I'm not going to use my phone because of that or not.
Speaker A:I'm going to wear my Seatbelt today.
Speaker A:But then on the flip side, so that sort of sort with the road safety and the, the road death aspect, but we look at the driving test aspect as well.
Speaker A:If you're posting regularly or just putting a post up, talking about, okay, so you have to do an extra two months.
Speaker A:What can we do in those two months?
Speaker A:What could you do?
Speaker A:Could you have some motorway lessons?
Speaker A:Could you do that multi story car park, you know, whatever it is that you're doing?
Speaker A:What could mock test even.
Speaker A:Because if you're up to good enough standard, maybe that is a good time to do a mock test.
Speaker B:You know, that's what she wants it fine.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So if you're talking about that, yes, most people on social media won't agree with that, but you can't influence everyone.
Speaker A:But maybe you impact someone and maybe by doing that you prevent a crash.
Speaker A:So don't be afraid to do those posts.
Speaker B:Well, at one time I would have said, well, you know, you can't really quantify it, but you can now because the government publish what a road death costs, what a KSI, you know, what they each, what do they actually cost now?
Speaker B:Well, why should we bother with that?
Speaker B:Oh, we're all taxpayers, you know, and if you save one life through changing that, you can, you can quantify what that's worth.
Speaker B:And it's hundreds of thousands, by the way.
Speaker B:It's, it costs a lot of money.
Speaker B:You know, road accidents cost a lot of money.
Speaker B:So it's, there are things we can do and, you know, we do throw our hands up there and go, oh, there's nothing we can do.
Speaker B:And we then worry about the wrong things.
Speaker B:We point the finger of blame at the DVSA and it is their bloody fault, by the way.
Speaker B:You know, if they paid their examiners a decent amount of money and stop treating them like shit, that.
Speaker B:Stop leaving.
Speaker B:That's a simple fact that nobody at the DVSA seems able to learn.
Speaker B:Christ almighty, how obvious does it fucking have to be?
Speaker B:Anyway?
Speaker B:Sorry, I'll figure it.
Speaker A:So what we can do, Bob, what.
Speaker B:We can do we've got to look at.
Speaker B:What can we do about that?
Speaker B:Because if we worry about them, we have more.
Speaker B:We can't influence that.
Speaker B:So we're worrying about stuff we've got no control over, which is crazy, which is what makes it so bloody frustrating and that they keep having to learn this lesson over and over again.
Speaker B:They're very slow Learners, the DBs here.
Speaker B:You know, I saw Lee's post the other day about, you know, he's frustrated because he has to keep constantly reminding them about what role six is in the national standard for driver and radar training.
Speaker B:They seem to forget that there's a.
Speaker B:You know, the big thing that they forget is the sixth unit in that whole set starts with we need to determine whether role play is necessary or not.
Speaker B:That's what it starts with.
Speaker B:You have to forget that.
Speaker B:But they need educating.
Speaker B:But they're a slow learner, unfortunately, a very slow learner.
Speaker B:Because nobody in the civil service ever wants to make a decision that they can be held accountable for because that gets in the way of career progression.
Speaker B:How do I know that?
Speaker B:I was married to a senior civil servant.
Speaker A:But the last topic I want to cover today, and I'm going to try and word this very specifically, so bear with me, but it's about CPD and it's about the lack of people that partake in it and involve themselves in it at all.
Speaker A:So very specifically, what can the people that either partake in CPD or create CPD do about the people that don't partake in it?
Speaker A:Because we're really quick to moan about them, but what can we do to encourage them?
Speaker B:Got to make it more appealing.
Speaker B:It's, you know, we're locked in a world where if you want to sell CPD in numbers, you have to mention standards check.
Speaker B:And that's tailed off because the danger of getting a standards check is reduced.
Speaker B:Having said that, they're starting to come through now.
Speaker B:So our part twos and part three, so we'll see an uplift.
Speaker B:And that's what CPD is.
Speaker B:The industry panicking a gut reaction or a knee jerk reaction to the possibility of getting a standards check.
Speaker B:So we have a duty, I think, those of us who provide CPD to make it more appealing, but that's hard.
Speaker B:And I think the podcast has done a great service to the CPD industry, as did TRICOTI when they were around.
Speaker B:Whether you like them or you don't, you know that we're responsible for generating a lot of CPD work and having people be interested in cpd.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And those of us who apply our trade doing that owe them a debt of gratitude.
Speaker B:But it's, it's hard.
Speaker B:We need to find out what it is that people would be interested in.
Speaker B:That's a difficult thing to do because when we canvas opinion in the industry, we don't get much of a response.
Speaker B:The DVSA must get super frustrated with us as well, by the way, because they send out a questionnaire to 40,000 instructors and 13% of us respond.
Speaker B:They must be sat looking at that thinking, well, they don't care.
Speaker B:They're not bothered.
Speaker B:Clearly not bothered.
Speaker B:So do what the hell we want.
Speaker B:Which is why they do what the hell they want.
Speaker A:I am going to disagree with you for the first time today.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker A:Or half disagree with you because I agree with you that we need to make it more appealing.
Speaker B:We do.
Speaker A:What I don't think we do is need to make it standard check based.
Speaker A:And I get where that comes from.
Speaker A:I get why you're saying to attract people in.
Speaker A:But I go back to, you know, kind of touched on this at the start of the episode.
Speaker A: But I go back to: Speaker A:And what I found, what attracts more people in from, from me.
Speaker A:And this is just anecdotal evidence, but for me is someone seeing a random episode about someone thinking that sounds interesting and then as a result of that, they go and find more stuff.
Speaker A:It's not usually the standards check stuff.
Speaker A:And one of the.
Speaker A:I don't, I don't discuss like numbers an awful lot in terms of downloads because I don't want people to know necessarily that this person has done better than this person, whatever.
Speaker A:But the interesting thing for me is when I do a standard Shack episode, it doesn't usually get higher numbers on the first day, but overall it does long, less numbers.
Speaker A:So on the first day it'll do higher numbers, but over the first 28 days it tends to do less numbers.
Speaker A:So I think it attracts the people that are only interested in standards checks.
Speaker A:But I think the other episodes attract people who aren't doing anything.
Speaker A:It's the more interesting.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's a fair point, Terry, but is it not the case that people who listen to the podcast are generally people who are interested in developing.
Speaker A:Anyway, this is a problem I've got now because now I've got that many downloads and numbers.
Speaker A:It's hard to look at as many specifics.
Speaker A:But in that first year or two.
Speaker A:I'll go back to the first episode I did with you, Bob.
Speaker A:It were you and Amanda leak talking marketing that went out on the same day.
Speaker A:We did 28 downloads for both of you combined in the first week.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's like the first six minutes now when it goes out.
Speaker A:I do that many on YouTube and I don't even use YouTube.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's really.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's nuts.
Speaker A:So I can't make the same breakdown now.
Speaker A:But earlier on I could, you know, when there were new people listening to the podcast, I could tell when someone new had found it because it wasn't just one download, it was the go and download every like the first 18 episodes or whatever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So standard check stuff helps because it does draw people in, but I don't think it's necessary as much as, as.
Speaker B:Well, I think we think it's as an industry, the CPD and I think we just fall into that trap and I'm very fortunate now that, you know, retired, semi retired and I don't have a need to have a full diary and stuff.
Speaker B:You know, it's just I'm doing stuff that interests me now and it's been interesting.
Speaker B:The workshops that I have done on PDI adi, I've made them like how we learn and then I've tagged one on the number two.
Speaker B:But that is scoring well.
Speaker B:But I describe it as scoring well in the real world and scoring well on standards check and stuff.
Speaker B:And with that I'm hoping I'm picking people's interest to see that.
Speaker B:Look, if we really speak to the way we learn as human beings, we'll generate thinking drivers who will be higher skilled and certainly more risk, more liable to manage risk more effectively.
Speaker B:So I've been trying to do that and then get people interested in coaching, which is, it's such.
Speaker B:It's been fascinating for me that I've done it that way.
Speaker B:But if I was out there and I needed to fill workshop space, I'd mentioned seat, I'd mentioned standards checking the title.
Speaker B:Perhaps that's our fault as the CPD providers that we're, you know, we're pandering to that.
Speaker B:Easy for me to just say, well, I won't do that.
Speaker B:But if this is how you earn your main living and you've got a mortgage and you know, young kids at home, then I don't know, I don't know what the answer is but it's, it probably needs a putting in a bag and shaking up.
Speaker B:But we need to be able to get to the whole industry really and that's difficult.
Speaker A:I think the thing that I will tag in here actually, because I'm, I'm guilty of not seeing this sometimes, is that there's nothing wrong with standard check or part three trading.
Speaker A:There's nothing wrong with standard check off part three CPD at all.
Speaker A:I just, I think we make it the be all Mendel sometimes.
Speaker A:But one other thing I'm going to chuck in here Actually, like you said, we have to reach everyone.
Speaker A:One place we can do that is test centers.
Speaker A:And I went to a tester I've not been to for a little while recently.
Speaker A:Just, you know, this where my shouldn't get a test.
Speaker A:It's local, but it's not one I usually use.
Speaker A: ich is great, except it was a: Speaker A:Because if we can't control what they put up at the test centers, but we can make people aware of it, I can write a letter to the ltm.
Speaker A:I can make the NJC know that.
Speaker A:Hold on, this, this post is out of date.
Speaker A:So they can get in touch.
Speaker A:So even things like that, we can have an influence on what goes up.
Speaker B:Interesting, because people look at that and think, ah, no point in me doing that.
Speaker B:And I had a conversation with my other half.
Speaker B:She has a big problem with the BBC currently, that I quite like the BBC for news.
Speaker B:I'm not saying it's not biased in one way or another, but I think it's reasonably balanced.
Speaker B:BBC news, not the TV news, not the breakfast programs and that sort of stuff.
Speaker B:It's just like puppy news.
Speaker B:But she said they're always ramming recycling down our throats.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, you know, it's.
Speaker B:It's important.
Speaker B:You know, we're shafting the planet here.
Speaker B:I know, but, you know, what about China?
Speaker B:But what about them?
Speaker B:Sure, they're not doing it.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I said, well, if I saw somebody not wearing their seatbelt, would it be sensible for me to not wear mine?
Speaker B:Well, I know you're being silly now.
Speaker B:It's not nuts.
Speaker B:If I'm wearing my seatbelt and I trash for that guy who's not wearing one, you'll probably die.
Speaker B:But I probably won't.
Speaker B:If you choose to do nothing about recycling, then you're part of the problem.
Speaker B:If you do do some recycling and you're not making much of a difference, you're still making a difference.
Speaker B:And if enough people thought that it would make a big difference, sure, I suppose that's why the BBC are just getting that message out.
Speaker B:Just because it's you doesn't mean it's not the right message.
Speaker B:So it's this idea that we should own all of this.
Speaker B:As an industry, we depend, we're regulated by the DBSA and we seem to put them in the position while they're running the show.
Speaker B:Well, they're not.
Speaker B:They administer the register.
Speaker B:That's what they do.
Speaker B:They assess stuff and they administer the register.
Speaker B:They're not experts in training or education, which is why they had to get somebody else to write the national standard for them.
Speaker B:Even though some people claim that they did it, they did not.
Speaker B:It's a company called People first that did it, as Mr.
Speaker B:Betts did.
Speaker B:We're both on the same page with this and we both challenged the same individuals with no, you didn't.
Speaker B:People first did that publicly on Facebook.
Speaker B:The people responsible very quickly wound their necks in because they were found out.
Speaker B:It's stolen glory, stolen valor, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's the one.
Speaker B:So we could, you know, as an industry, if we could just get organized, be better at what we do.
Speaker B:You know, the INJC and the, you know, the DIA and the MSA and the DITC are doing their best to do that, but you can't lead people where they don't want to be led.
Speaker B:So we have a responsibility as each individual within the industry to maybe take stuff a bit more, say maybe take a teeny bit of ownership or maybe take part a little bit more or, you know, but we don't because we're too busy.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:You mentioned njc, msa, dia, ditc.
Speaker A:You know, I'm always slightly reluctant to include the DITC in that because they always go out the way.
Speaker A:So they're not an association, but I think that they fulfill a similar role.
Speaker A:If someone's listening, they're not happy with those.
Speaker A:Come a member impact it, you know, like the, the njc.
Speaker A:I'm on the committee of the NJC now, so obviously I'm gonna showcase those.
Speaker A:But four pound fifty a month, Fiverr a month.
Speaker A:Four pound fifty.
Speaker A:I forget four pound fifty or join my premium membership.
Speaker A:You get it for two pound fifty either way.
Speaker A:But you can have a bonus.
Speaker A:But you could, you could do that and then you get a say.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because I think this comes down to the other thing.
Speaker A:You can do something or you can do nothing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And like you said, if you do nothing, then potentially a part of the problem.
Speaker A:But also that only works if you see it as a problem.
Speaker A:Because I'm going to go back to some I touched on earlier actually, and I think this, it's a nice way, potentially a nice way to finish is those people that aren't investing in cpd, those people that don't care in cpd.
Speaker A:I don't think that we should be sitting here slagging them off and we're not to clarify, actually, we haven't done today, but you hear a lot of people doing it and I've probably done it in the past, you know, I'm guilty of.
Speaker A:Of.
Speaker A:I think because as I said, they're in a different chapter, potentially in a different book.
Speaker A:They're not doing it for the same reasons we are now.
Speaker A:If that person cared about road safety and then they weren't doing anything, then to me, that's where criticism lies.
Speaker A:If they're just doing it as a 9 to 5 job, that they've got a whole different goal.
Speaker A:And the other thing is, if someone's out in that, that other book looking over and what they're seeing online is everyone slagging them off, they're a lot less likely to come over.
Speaker A:They'll stay on the dark side, they won't join the light side.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's where we're less than professional in our approach as an industry or less than professional in our approach to a lot of things.
Speaker B:And a lot of the time it's because, well, we don't know any better.
Speaker B:I mean, coaching was sort of sprung on me, I suppose, really.
Speaker B:I didn't, you know, it's not something I probably would have chosen to do, but there was a need to find out some stuff.
Speaker B:And once I got involved and interested in it, then I thought, oh, I don't know, I love this.
Speaker B:But up to that point, I didn't know.
Speaker B:I swore what I was doing was the best way to do it because that's all I knew.
Speaker B:I did not know there was another way once I discovered it.
Speaker B:And if you listen to this and you've not done some CPD or you've been thinking about doing it, just try it and see if you like it.
Speaker B:You know, it's approach a trainer.
Speaker B:You know, I have this.
Speaker B:Occasionally people will approach me.
Speaker B:So, you know, what will it bring to me?
Speaker B:I swear, why don't you try it?
Speaker B:I'll tell you what, if you don't like it, I won't charge you.
Speaker B:How's that?
Speaker A:So I'm gonna throw another thing in there, actually.
Speaker A:And even if you don't even have to go that far, you can start with this episode.
Speaker A:You think about some of the things we spoke about in first 20 minutes.
Speaker A:Someone listening could pick one of those things and go, I'm gonna go and try this because you can make this podcast cpd.
Speaker A:And this is just my definition.
Speaker A:CPD is if you implement and.
Speaker A:Or reflect on it.
Speaker A:So if you go and try it and it doesn't work but you reflect on it and work out why this great that's making it cpd.
Speaker A:So if you really standoffish you could use this as your starting point and then if you find that you enjoy it or you find that it works and maybe that's when you go to someone else.
Speaker B:Well, I mean it's interesting to say that because that's the key to having learning, proper learning and meaningful learning happen.
Speaker B:So there's lots of different ways that people can learn and I don't buy into learning sets up but the learning happens after the event.
Speaker B:It's like when you go to the gym, you don't build a muscle when you're pumping the iron, you build the muscle afterwards when you feed it.
Speaker B:And the brain is the same, it gets all that information and it's during the reflective or you know, during the cognitive conflict and then the reflection phase where the learning really happens where we make connections between what we know and what we don't know which might then pique our curiosity learning a little bit more about something or you know, other, other avenues.
Speaker B:So it is that reflection that's the cpd, that's when it happens, not actually during the cpd.
Speaker B:Although if you build reflection into it than it is.
Speaker B:So yeah, interesting.
Speaker A:Where can people find you, Bob?
Speaker A:What do you have to offer CPD wise?
Speaker B:Well at the minute I'm in the midst of Cohort 1 on my certificate in coaching.
Speaker B:Cohort 2 will be launching later in the year.
Speaker B:Somewhere you can find me on clientcentered learning.co.uk I have a membership package where you can you get access to all my online content for a monthly fee.
Speaker B:And I have a mentorship scheme which I'm running, it's run through Pdiadi which again 20 quid a month get to meet me twice a month.
Speaker B:Yeah, twice a month, that's right.
Speaker B:Second and fourth Tuesdays and that's been interesting.
Speaker B:There are a lot of interesting characters on there people there.
Speaker B:It's become almost a self help group really and there's more and more of the people who are on it chip in all the time now which is really nice.
Speaker B:Or you can email me at bob@clientcenteredlearning.co.uk.
Speaker A:Members I've said this lot today, members of the instructor podcast Premium get a 10 pound discount on your client set of learning.
Speaker A:So yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:No, thank you for joining me today.
Speaker A:Well, thank you for being the first ever guest and thank you for joining me on all these anniversary episodes.
Speaker A:I will see you at the same time next year.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:It's been great.
Speaker B:It's been lovely watching it grow and finding its place in the industry.
Speaker A:No, but big thank you for joining me today.
Speaker A:Pleasure as always.
Speaker B:Always a pleasure, never a chore.
Speaker A:The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking.
Speaker B:With leaders, innovators, experts and game changers.
Speaker A:About what drives them.
