Who Should You Take for Your Standards Check? 17 Trainers Share Their Secrets!
Choosing the right pupil for a Standards Check is crucial for driving instructors, and this episode gathers insights from 17 esteemed trainers on how to make that decision.
The consensus is clear: instructors should select a pupil who genuinely needs to learn and can showcase their teaching skills effectively. Whether it's a learner who needs development or a partly trained driver, the right choice can help demonstrate the instructor's capabilities.
Many trainers caution against taking full license holders unless the instructor is experienced in teaching them, as the dynamics can shift unexpectedly. Humor and rapport with the chosen pupil also play a vital role in easing nerves and ensuring a productive lesson, making the process more enjoyable for both the instructor and the examiner.
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Navigating the complexities of a Standards Check can be daunting for driving instructors, but the wisdom shared by 17 experienced trainers in this episode sheds light on the nuances of choosing the right pupil for the task. Each trainer brings a unique perspective, emphasizing the importance of rapport, reliability, and the specific needs of the learner. Rather than gravitating towards a full license holder—often seen as the 'safer' choice—many trainers suggest opting for someone who requires development in a particular area. This approach not only highlights the instructor's skills but also creates a more dynamic and engaging learning environment. The conversation is peppered with humorous anecdotes, underscoring how personal experiences can shape an instructor's philosophy and approach to teaching. Whether it’s the nerves of a first-time assessment or the comfort of familiar faces, the trainers share candid insights that resonate with both new and seasoned instructors alike, encouraging a shift in perspective about the evaluation process.
Takeaways:
- When choosing a pupil for a Standards Check, prioritise someone who genuinely needs to learn something.
- Taking your best pupil might not always be the best choice for a Standards Check.
- Select a pupil you have a good rapport with to help ease the nervousness during the assessment.
- Consider bringing a backup pupil in case your primary choice becomes unavailable on the day.
- It's important to take a pupil that you can showcase your skills with effectively.
- Full license holders can be challenging; instructors should choose pupils they are accustomed to teaching.
Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them welcome to the Instructor Podcast.
Terry Cook:This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor.
Terry Cook:And as always, I am your splendid host Terry Cook, and I'm delighted to be even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are taking a slight detour from our technology theme for this episode.
Terry Cook:You see, this weekend I am attending an ADI NJC meeting on Saturday and an IMTD meeting on Sunday, so opted to mix up a little bit with a special episode for you.
Terry Cook:Diving into My Premium Vault now, over the last few years I've done a deep dive into the standards check, breaking down all 17 competencies with 17 different trainers.
Terry Cook:And it's been a truly fascinating insight into the standards check in Part three.
Terry Cook:But one question I've asked them all is who would they take for a standard check or part three because it's still one of the most commonly asked questions.
Terry Cook:So in this episode I've collected all of their answers together just for you.
Terry Cook:And this is just a taste of what's available in the Premium membership.
Terry Cook:So to find out more, there's a link in the show Notes or you can Visit the website www.the instructorpodcast.com and while you're checking out websites, be sure to check out the sponsor of Season nine, My Drive Time, the industry's premium award winning business management app.
Terry Cook:Find out more@mydrivetime.co.uk but just before we get stuck in, I want to ask you two favors.
Terry Cook:Firstly, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss all the midweek bonus content that we put out.
Terry Cook:And secondly, show the instructor podcast some love.
Terry Cook:If you're finding these shows useful or interesting, then share it or leave us a review.
Terry Cook:Help us grow this show and reach new instructors.
Terry Cook:But for now, let's get stuck into the show.
Terry Cook:Kicking off with R.
Terry Cook:Seagri and then Bob Martin.
Terry Cook:We're going to start off by looking at almost the first thing on the standards check, which is a pupil you take.
Terry Cook:So the option gives you are beginners, partly trained, trained, full license holder, new or full license holder experienced.
Terry Cook:Now just before I ask you for your thoughts on this, I want to harp back to my standards check, which would have been about four years ago now.
Terry Cook:And I asked for some advice on one of the I forgot which group, one of the Facebook groups.
Terry Cook:And the advice was wide and varying in that everyone told me a specific thing that I should do which was from the extreme of take Your wife take a full license holder, you don't want to take a student, you want to take someone that you can actually plan it with.
Terry Cook:To the other extreme of it doesn't matter who you take, you can take absolutely anyone, just give a completely normal lesson and everything in between.
Terry Cook:So I'm gonna kind of throw that straight over to you and ask for your take on that.
Terry Cook:Yeah, well, I think if you look at the DVSA's perspective that there, there's a reason why all those boxes are there.
Terry Cook:Because actually you can take anyone because at the end of the day you are looking for a lesson that is giving value for money and learning is taking place and that can happen with anyone at those levels would be my view.
Terry Cook:Yeah, I mean, my take on it at the time was that there's no specific right answer that suits everyone.
Terry Cook:You know, like the people that were saying take your wife, you know, don't take one of your learners.
Terry Cook:It's like they would have said that to anyone.
Terry Cook:It wasn't specific to me.
Terry Cook:So you kind of say it's relevance, the individual.
Terry Cook:Yeah, because you are, you are looking to take someone that is going to be, going to help, going to help challenge you, but in a nice way so you can show your skills off to the examiner.
Terry Cook:So it's someone that's going to give you some work to do, but not completely stretch you in a way that you're going to feel as though you've continually.
Terry Cook:Firefighting things get out of hand quite quickly.
Terry Cook:So in that respect it shouldn't really matter because if the lesson is well structured, well planned and you're working with the pupil's goals, it should happen as though it was a lesson that you would normally do.
Terry Cook:I think yes.
Terry Cook:There are people that say it should be like you would normally do.
Terry Cook:I think if it is more like what you would normally do, then it is far easier.
Terry Cook:Definitely.
Terry Cook:I think as well, from, from my perspective, in terms of like a personal sense, it would be because I know we should get on with all the students, but there's maybe some that you have a better relationship with others.
Terry Cook:From my perspective, I would think take someone that you maybe ideally get on with a bit better than one of the ones you maybe butt heads with slightly.
Terry Cook:Maybe butt heads is the wrong term, but I know you can still achieve the same results, but you have to make yourself feel comfortable on that day as well.
Terry Cook:So I think.
Terry Cook:Would that be something you would consider?
Terry Cook:Yeah, I consider the whole thing as being a bit like going for an interview, you know, you feel slightly uncomfortable but you sure your own and you're confident in your own abilities because it is tricky having someone assess you and sat in the back.
Terry Cook:But the more in your comfort zone you can feel then the better that's going to be.
Terry Cook:So in terms of the type of pupil you're going to want to take someone that is going to be, they've got good rapport with that, they are responsive to questions that you might ask, particularly at the minute when the majority of the standard check is on the drive.
Terry Cook:So you're going to want someone that's at a certain level to be able to deal with that.
Terry Cook:But in normal situations you've got someone that is responsive and that you've got a good relationship with that you know they are, they are working with you and you are working with them.
Terry Cook:And also I'd imagine someone that's not a serial counselor.
Terry Cook:My take on it would be always make sure you got back up there as well.
Terry Cook:Again, my example was I had the student who I, who I trusted was reliable.
Terry Cook:I made sure they were ready to come along, but I also had backup in another student.
Terry Cook:Again, is that something that you would recommend?
Terry Cook:Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Cook:You need a plan A and a plan B and everything.
Terry Cook:We need it in the car on a day to day anything can happen.
Terry Cook:You know, we might have to adapt a lesson in any way.
Terry Cook:So yeah, in terms of the date, it's going to be maybe a couple of pupils that you've got, that you've maybe spoken to prior to that and they're on call as it were.
Terry Cook:So you've got, you've got some options there.
Terry Cook:I'm asking everyone that comes on who they should take for a test because I think this is one of the most common questions I see and I even get asked now and again, who should I take on my standards check because at the top it says beginner, partly trained, trained, full license holder, new and full license holder, experienced.
Terry Cook:So does it matter, Bob, who you take?
Terry Cook:I would say no, but I'll just add a rider to that.
Terry Cook:I think you need to take somebody that works well with you, that when you ask them questions they don't go, I don't know.
Terry Cook:Unless you're going to really showcase your ability to break down barriers, then they're not going to be useful to you.
Terry Cook:Take somebody that works well with you and that you're going to get something from when you ask questions, you know, when you, when you pull over for a review to say, well, is what we're doing working?
Terry Cook:They're not going to go.
Terry Cook:You're the instructor that's not going to showcase you.
Terry Cook:Well, so I think we have to be sensible about it and just think, well, does this person work well with me?
Terry Cook:Do we get stuff done?
Terry Cook:You know, that is, is there an end product to what we're doing?
Terry Cook:Because if you're just chuntering on and you're just going over and over and over the same ground and nothing's, you know, learned, then it's a waste of time.
Terry Cook:And I see that a lot.
Terry Cook:We're trundling about sort of fixing a lot of stuff, but never really truly making sure that learning happens.
Terry Cook:And that's the key thing, make sure that learning happens.
Terry Cook:That that interaction you have with that person results in something.
Terry Cook:There is, I like to call it, end product.
Terry Cook:That's what we're being assessed on here.
Terry Cook:It's not whether we can instruct you not, it's whether we've got a right to charge for it.
Terry Cook:So we have to bear that in mind.
Terry Cook:Are we providing good value for money?
Terry Cook:That's a bit off at a bit of a tangent, but you know, take somebody that works with you and that you can demonstrate that what you're doing works.
Terry Cook:Do you think we should sort of be aiming to take one of our current students as a primary choice or do you think it genuinely doesn't matter?
Terry Cook:Oh, and I think that's, that's, that's almost key, Terry, if I'm honest, because if you take your sister, your brother, your mother, your husband, your wife, you're starting to pre plan stuff.
Terry Cook:And I hear this all the time, what's your plan?
Terry Cook:Oh, and I'm going to take your brother.
Terry Cook:Well, hang on a minute.
Terry Cook:Is that what your brother wants to do?
Terry Cook:Well, I don't know.
Terry Cook:Right, okay, so you're going to deliver a lesson and you're going to try and make the pupil fit the lesson rather than trying to make the lesson fit the pupil.
Terry Cook:This is key because you can sniff it a mile away when somebody's trying to set stuff up because it just doesn't run naturally.
Terry Cook:And you can sit in the back and think, well, you know, I've seen that person drive for a little bit now and they do the stuff that you're talking about.
Terry Cook:Okay.
Terry Cook:John Sheridan always tells the tale about, you know, people taking full license holders trying to do moving off and stopping lessons and mirrors lessons.
Terry Cook:It's ridiculous.
Terry Cook:You know, make it a genuine lesson.
Terry Cook:They always said, deliver your normal lesson.
Terry Cook:Well, there's no normal about it because you don't normally have an examiner in the back, but do what you would do with that pupil right now based on what their needs and wants are and your input as a professional trainer.
Terry Cook:Just before we move on to that, I think just for my interest with the examiners.
Terry Cook:Do you think that.
Terry Cook:So if I turned up for my Sanders check tomorrow, I took my wife.
Terry Cook:Do you think that examiner, their immediate thought is going to try and blog this with his wife?
Terry Cook:You know.
Terry Cook:Yeah, yeah, because I was thinking about that.
Terry Cook:I just thought we get now you get the Sanders check, you get the engagement call eight weeks in advance.
Terry Cook:Because what I do is I do with my wife's backup.
Terry Cook:She's penciled in.
Terry Cook:If the student lets me down.
Terry Cook:Absolutely.
Terry Cook:That's the ideal time to tell the examiner, you know, I'm not 100% which, which student I'm taking.
Terry Cook:Yeah, I've got these two in mind, but I have got my wife as backup.
Terry Cook:And then they know.
Terry Cook:Well, I would think an examiner is then going to say, oh yeah, wait, that's interesting.
Terry Cook:What are you going to do with that?
Terry Cook:If you bring it.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And if the answer is, well, I'm not sure you'll say, why are you not sure?
Terry Cook:Well, because I haven't decided what we're doing yet is generally the answer.
Terry Cook:The proper answer would be that, well, I don't know what level we'll be at by the time we reach eight weeks time.
Terry Cook:But it is interesting when I talk to people.
Terry Cook:So what's your plan, what you plan on doing?
Terry Cook:And when I ask why are you doing that lesson, why that one in particular?
Terry Cook:And they've chosen it well, I think it's my strongest subject.
Terry Cook:Oh God.
Terry Cook:It's the same as I see people posting on online.
Terry Cook:You know, I passed me standards checking, I'm going here, fantastic, well done you.
Terry Cook:I always, if I'm, if I'm there, congratulations.
Terry Cook:Other people straight in, can I have your notes?
Terry Cook:And they somehow think, oh, these notes are grade A notes.
Terry Cook:No, they're not met.
Terry Cook:The notes that were delivered by a grade A instructor, that's a different thing.
Terry Cook:If you try and just deliver their notes, it's not going to work for you because you're a different instructor and your pupils are different people.
Terry Cook:I'm joined by the ever delightful, magnificent, wonderful and tremendous and somewhat architectural godlike Chris Benstead.
Terry Cook:How are you doing, Chris?
Terry Cook:They got to explain it now?
Terry Cook:No, I'm doing really, I'm doing really good.
Terry Cook:Yes.
Terry Cook:For anyone listening, yesterday I got referred to as an architect in the industry and I thought that was a really cool phrase, but I need to change my voice to match Morgan Freeman's.
Terry Cook:I feel it's more appropriate.
Terry Cook:Cool.
Terry Cook:We are here to talk about the Sanders check checklist.
Terry Cook:And the question I like to ask everyone to begin with is around who to tick.
Terry Cook:So when you look at the top of the sheet, it says you can take a beginner, partly trained, trained, full license holder or full license holder, new or experienced.
Terry Cook:And I like to ask everyone their thoughts on this because it's the question I probably see most asked online.
Terry Cook:Who should I take?
Terry Cook:So what are your thoughts initially on that, Chris?
Terry Cook:The person that you need to take is really, really simple.
Terry Cook:It is the one that is guaranteed to turn up.
Terry Cook:You need someone, you can't take the test, you can't sit the test or check rather without a pupil there.
Terry Cook:So get someone that's going to be reliable because if you can then take that pressure off of you that you know that person will be there, you know that they're going to be stable so they're not going to absolutely fall apart and you know they're going to deliver what you know is going to.
Terry Cook:It's going to take all that pressure off of you and then you can do what you do.
Terry Cook:You can be good at what you're doing because you haven't got all those other worries of what's going to go wrong.
Terry Cook:What if there's a power cut?
Terry Cook:What if the trains break down that day?
Terry Cook:What if all of these things happen and I don't manage to go to do the actual job?
Terry Cook:You can focus on the actual job, the job in hand.
Terry Cook:So find someone that will turn up.
Terry Cook:I think it's really interesting that whenever I speak to any, I would consider expert trainers, they all say the same thing about how it take.
Terry Cook:It's always in essence, it doesn't really matter.
Terry Cook:You know, the rules are.
Terry Cook:Yes, there's preferences, you know, you want to take someone, ideally you get on with someone reliable, like you said, is the key.
Terry Cook:But in terms of the actual pupil, everyone's just saying the same thing, it doesn't matter.
Terry Cook:And I think that us as driving instructors that aren't audit trained or trainers and trainers, we were guilty of focused on that too much, which is very much what learners doing it, they focus on the test.
Terry Cook:What will the examiner think about this one thing rather than all the rest of the test, we focus on this, which is in a lot of ways the least important thing.
Terry Cook:Yes.
Terry Cook:And where it goes wrong isn't in.
Terry Cook:It's not in the plan that comes before.
Terry Cook:It's the plan that happens on the day and they're two very different things.
Terry Cook:And we're looking at practice area.
Terry Cook:The planned practice area will be the correct one for the plan at the time at which you decided.
Terry Cook:However, on the day, the area might have changed.
Terry Cook:My last check test before it became standards check, I was out doing some country roads on a route that I'd been down before and gone, this will be awesome.
Terry Cook:And nothing happened.
Terry Cook:It was a really eventful route.
Terry Cook:There was loads of stuff to work with before.
Terry Cook:It was shocking.
Terry Cook:I was paddling frantically because the route had changed, the environment had changed and I picked a route that I couldn't adapt and adaptation's really important or the need changes.
Terry Cook:So you decide to do roundabouts, which I'm always a bit funny about roundabouts.
Terry Cook:It can work really well, but it's lots of elements.
Terry Cook:We should be looking at elements, not at subjects.
Terry Cook:So we look at, you know, we.
Terry Cook:All right, we'll go out and do roundabouts.
Terry Cook:We're working on judgment, but their clutch control goes out the window.
Terry Cook:Stop.
Terry Cook:Don't keep doing roundabouts.
Terry Cook:Go and do clutch control.
Terry Cook:At that point, the practice area being used is going to be the wrong one.
Terry Cook:That might have been brilliant for the.
Terry Cook:For the initial plan, but for what's needed, it's not.
Terry Cook:And that's the important thing.
Terry Cook:So a big welcome to the standards check checklist and I today I'm joined by the wonderful Lee Jaw.
Terry Cook:How are we doing, Lee?
Terry Cook:I'm great, thanks, Terry.
Terry Cook:How are you?
Terry Cook:I am all the better for seeing your smiley face.
Terry Cook:This is one of the shows I get the most the best feedback on, so hopefully we can continue that strong vein today.
Terry Cook:So what we're doing is we are going to be working his way through the standards check and today we are going to be looking at the competency of Was the lesson plan adapted when appropriate to help the pupil work towards their learning goals.
Terry Cook:But before we dive into that, I'm asking all the guests that come on this about who they take on the test.
Terry Cook:So I'm going to throw that straight over to you, Lee.
Terry Cook:What would your advice be about who you take on a test?
Terry Cook:I think the best advice that I can give to somebody is to consider what your bread and butter is.
Terry Cook:What do I do every day, you know, what is.
Terry Cook:What is my main source of teaching, and then figure out ideally what sort of pupils are available to you, which ones are going to be the best at dealing with the situation.
Terry Cook:Remember that it's your Test, this is about you, the instructor.
Terry Cook:So you really want the best candidate that you can take to help you to give the best lesson you possibly can.
Terry Cook:But as I say, I think the most important thing really is that you're gonna fall back onto your core skills whenever you're, whenever you're struggling, whenever we're struggling, whenever we, Whenever we are under pressure, we.
Terry Cook:We just naturally adapt to what we normally used to.
Terry Cook:And so where I'm hinting with that, really, if I'm honest, is I get a lot of instructors and PDIs come to me and say that I'm thinking about taking a full license holder for my standards check on my part three.
Terry Cook:And when I ask them, is that your main source of pupils, the majority of your pupils, for license holders, almost without fail, the answers, no, no, it's not what I normally do.
Terry Cook:And so if it's not what you normally do, why would you do that for your standards check?
Terry Cook:The examiners on the standards check, they're not looking for perfection.
Terry Cook:What they, what they need to see is development and learning taking place.
Terry Cook:And development and learning taking place is going to be much easier for the instructor if you do what you do day in, day out than trying to do something that you wouldn't normally do.
Terry Cook:That, that makes a lot of sense.
Terry Cook:And it's interesting because the reason I like to ask this to everyone that comes on is because it's probably the question I see asked most about the Sanders check.
Terry Cook:And I know that when I had mine, which was probably about four years ago now, because I've only had one, I got advice from everyone, I didn't ask for it.
Terry Cook:And the reason I like to ask you all is because I think you all generally give quite a similar answer, but in a different way, because it is what you normally do.
Terry Cook:And it's like when I think about my learners, a lot of them, you know, they have this idea that they have to drive a certain way for a driving test.
Terry Cook:And I try and explain some.
Terry Cook:If you learn to drive, that's just the way you drive.
Terry Cook:If you then try and drive differently on your test, you're going to find it harder.
Terry Cook:And I suppose that's a similar principle.
Terry Cook:If I teach a certain way and then try and suddenly change that for a Sanders check, I'm going to struggle a lot more.
Terry Cook:I totally agree.
Terry Cook:And it is that.
Terry Cook:And it's funny how human beings react to stressful situations and how we just become that little bit more irrational.
Terry Cook:And if we think about it rationally, actually the best thing for Me to do is to do something that I'd normally do and do it really well.
Terry Cook:And, and the benefit that we get with the standards check is that we can really plan it.
Terry Cook:We can deliver a lesson, but we can really plan it.
Terry Cook:You know, we can, we can put the bells and whistles on it, but, you know, if we, if we do something that we.
Terry Cook:That's out of our comfort zone, that we just don't know, you know, if you don't teach full license holders, for example, if, if that's not what you do, how on earth are you going to know what to deliver and how to deliver it?
Terry Cook:Absolutely nothing wrong with doing it and delivering a great lesson.
Terry Cook:Some people work in fleet, that's what they do.
Terry Cook:So who's your best?
Terry Cook:You know, if you work, if most of you works in fleet, who's your best person to take?
Terry Cook:Take a full license holder, deliver a great lesson.
Terry Cook:It's not wrong.
Terry Cook:And people will have got through standards checks and part threes having taken a full license holder.
Terry Cook:It's just advice, really, in terms of what's likely to be the best thing for somebody to do.
Terry Cook:Well, I would suggest what's most likely to work best is to do something that's normal to you rather than something that takes you out your comfort zone when you're already under enough pressure.
Terry Cook:So, welcome to the standards check checklist and this is episode five.
Terry Cook:And today I'm joined by the ever delightful Lee Sperry.
Terry Cook:How are we doing, Lee?
Terry Cook:I'm very good, Terry, thank you.
Terry Cook:How are you today?
Terry Cook:All the better for seeing your smiley face.
Terry Cook:And yeah, we're covering the standards check checklist today, which is where we dive into one of the 17 competencies.
Terry Cook:And you have landed at number five, I believe, which is did the trainer ensure that the pupil fully understood how the responsibility for risk would be shared?
Terry Cook:The question I like to ask everyone when they first come on this episode is the one that's right at the stop of the Sanders check, which is who should we take?
Terry Cook:Because it's the question that I see most online.
Terry Cook:It's the thing that the people seem to speak about most that some hours, if you take a person A, that's guaranteed to pass, and if you take person B, you're guaranteed to fail.
Terry Cook:So what are your thoughts on who you should take to stand this check?
Terry Cook:Well, I'd say on that, you know, if you're good at the job, if you're, if you're doing the training, if you know training correctly, then I suppose that you're going to pass regardless of who you take.
Terry Cook:But the risk is, will they turn up?
Terry Cook:So I'd say probably the most important thing is are they reliable enough to turn up so you don't lose a life?
Terry Cook:Because obviously back in the day when we used to do the check test, if the person didn't turn up, then the examiner would just role play and you had that option.
Terry Cook:But now it's no people, no test.
Terry Cook:So reliability, I'd say is number one on the list there.
Terry Cook:Definitely.
Terry Cook:Yeah, I think I'd agree with that.
Terry Cook:And it's something that I always consider and I know that I always have a backup and then I have like my wife on standby as well.
Terry Cook:So if my student, if first student doesn't turn up and then second student doesn't sign up, I've got my wife.
Terry Cook:Like you need to be by your form of do not take any of the phone calls apart from me, just in case.
Terry Cook:But do you think there's a difference all in whether you should be taking a full license holder or a student?
Terry Cook:Or do you think like you said, it's reliability and whoever's available?
Terry Cook:I think in terms of the level of, you know, where the students are, I think sort of a middle of the road person is kind of ideal.
Terry Cook:I do find that PDIs who take full license holders aren't used to working with PDIs because they work with learners every day.
Terry Cook:And when they take full license holder, the needs of the full license holder are, you know, a lot different how they would be as a learner and they have no experience with that at all.
Terry Cook:So then they kind of struggle to adapt the plan and to look at the needs of the full license holder because they've just got no experience with it.
Terry Cook:So I always sort of say, don't take a full license holder.
Terry Cook:Do take someone who is kind of what you're used to, which is a learner.
Terry Cook:Obviously on the other side of the scale, you can't take someone brand new anymore.
Terry Cook:So I'd say as someone that's had 15, 20 hours, someone that's going to do stuff that you can respond to and show off your skills is probably the best person to take, you know, in terms of where they're at.
Terry Cook:The other thing I'd say is, you know, take, take someone that you respond well with, that responds well to you, someone that you engage well with.
Terry Cook:If you take someone that's a shrugger, then you're not going to get much out of them.
Terry Cook:You know, someone that you can ask a question to and they'll give you a response and you can sort of bounce off each other in that sense is definitely a good idea.
Terry Cook:I'm joined by the ever wonderful Kev Field.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Kev?
Terry Cook:I'm very well, thanks, Terry.
Terry Cook:No, thank you for joining us today.
Terry Cook:I'm loving the quality of the guests that is coming on to talk about these standard checks.
Terry Cook:And we've had people like Ray Seagrave and Bob Martin and Chris Benstead and Lee Sperry, all these awesome people on.
Terry Cook:So, you know, you've not got much to live up to here.
Terry Cook:No pressure.
Terry Cook:No pressure at all then, really, is there?
Terry Cook:No pressure.
Terry Cook:No pressure.
Terry Cook:And today we're going to be talking about where the directions and instructions given in good time.
Terry Cook:But before we dive into that, I like to ask all my guests about who they would take to a sanders check.
Terry Cook:And just before I ask you this, I find that these fascinating because every answer I get, they're very similar, but they're slightly different.
Terry Cook:So I'm always intrigued.
Terry Cook:So if it's one of the most common questions I see online and it's one of the ones that I always find myself thinking about as well.
Terry Cook:So, yeah, for Overseer, if I came to you and said, kev, I've got my sanders check, who should I be taking?
Terry Cook:What would your answer be?
Terry Cook:How long have you got?
Terry Cook:35 minutes, I think.
Terry Cook:So the first thing I look for is someone that's reliable, someone that, you know, has his comes for every lesson, you know, they're reliable, they turn up.
Terry Cook:That's the first thing.
Terry Cook:Then what I would do is probably pick about two or three of them that I.
Terry Cook:Students that I know that are reliable, and then think about, you know, where they are in their training, what they're doing, what we might be doing when it comes around to it at that stage, because obviously it's a little bit further down the line.
Terry Cook:I do this probably about three weeks before something like that.
Terry Cook:And then the other thing is, how much rapport have I got with them?
Terry Cook:You know, how much, how much can I ask a question?
Terry Cook:And they don't just give me sort of like the pause in.
Terry Cook:And it takes a long time because ideally you want to show up your skills.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:You know, and that's.
Terry Cook:That's what I tend to look for in people is someone that one's reliable to.
Terry Cook:Have I got that?
Terry Cook:You know, that rapport, that atmosphere in the car is going to be good.
Terry Cook:You know, we're going to have a bit of fun, but at the same time also making sure that they can learn something.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And I think that's suppose three elements to the person that I'm going to choose.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:It's interesting because I was also thinking about this the other day because when I did my Sanders check, which would have been free.
Terry Cook: Well,: Terry Cook:And I kind of did what you said, that rapport aspect, that was the first thing I went down.
Terry Cook:I wrote down all my students and I went through crossing certain ones out, like, no, no, no, no.
Terry Cook:And.
Terry Cook:And then I, like you said, I broke it down into other stuff as more reliability.
Terry Cook:And it was just like there was one that stood out to me as this beacon above everyone else.
Terry Cook:It's like I want to take her.
Terry Cook:And thankfully she could do it.
Terry Cook:So I got quite lucky with mine.
Terry Cook:But is there any.
Terry Cook:No, no.
Terry Cook:Do you think anything that stands out was.
Terry Cook:That would be an obvious.
Terry Cook:Do not take that person.
Terry Cook:Me?
Terry Cook:No.
Terry Cook:So, you know, I've been totally honest because what I want is someone that wants to learn.
Terry Cook:So whether or not they are quiet as well.
Terry Cook:So people are sometimes just generally quiet.
Terry Cook:They just don't just listen or they give you the odd word, yeah, it's okay, I'm fine.
Terry Cook:Or yeah, I understand what you're saying.
Terry Cook:Does it really sort of like engage with them?
Terry Cook:Yes, but again, you know, I suppose this is where I sometimes have this.
Terry Cook:I won't say disagree with the DVSA because I agree with what we have to do.
Terry Cook:I think it's quite good.
Terry Cook:But at the same time it is a tick box and some of those boxes have to be ticked.
Terry Cook:And did I encourage the learner to analyze their problems?
Terry Cook:Sometimes if I've got a student that is generally quiet and they're more and not in person and go, yeah, I get it.
Terry Cook:Got it.
Terry Cook:Adding those extra questions might be slightly different to what I would do normally.
Terry Cook:Yes, they get it from the body language, but can this person sitting in the back see that body language?
Terry Cook:So I'm sort of like hit a miss with that one.
Terry Cook:Well, I know what's going on and they understand.
Terry Cook:Yeah, that's the person in the back.
Terry Cook:As always, it's not just me.
Terry Cook:I'm joined by someone who is an expert at an all around decent human being in Emma Cottington.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Emma?
Terry Cook:Hello.
Terry Cook:I don't know about decent, Terry, but I'm here.
Terry Cook:But yes, thanks for having me.
Terry Cook:Once again, it's a privilege.
Terry Cook:No, it's great to have you on.
Terry Cook:All right, so the first big question I like to ask everyone around the standards check specifically, and we've kind of touched on this before we started talking actually, is it's one of the things we see people stress about the most is who would take on the Sanders check.
Terry Cook:So, you know, if you had someone come to ask you about who should I take, what would your answer be?
Terry Cook:I think my biggest thing here, I think this kind of comes from a perspective of obviously we get a varied amount of different people come to us for what we do.
Terry Cook:You have different people sitting in that car every single day.
Terry Cook:But for me, this question comes down to one of the essential coaching skills.
Terry Cook:You know, I'm a true believer that if we don't have rapport with somebody we can't do, no matter how good we are at our job, if you haven't built that rapport with somebody else, then you can't do your job effectively.
Terry Cook:I don't believe.
Terry Cook:And we're not going to have rapport with everybody.
Terry Cook:You know, we're human, we don't get on with everybody.
Terry Cook:So there's going to be some that are more difficult than others because you can't build the rapport as well as what you could do with other people.
Terry Cook:So for me, I would be looking to do this with somebody who is.
Terry Cook:Got a bit of a rapport that will kind of bounce with me, somebody who's willing to answer the questions when they come and also equally, that's not scared of asking you questions either.
Terry Cook:They're not afraid of approaching you because they've got that rapport with you that they feel comfortable to say, I don't know what you're talking about, or I'm not getting this, or whatever it might be.
Terry Cook:So for me, it's somebody who's engaging and just from a personal perspective, somebody who doesn't take themselves too seriously, really.
Terry Cook:Like, I think I just connect with those type of people anyway that don't take themselves too seriously and forever, you know, quite happy to have a bit of a laugh with it and, you know, keep the series undertone of what we're doing and what we're trying to achieve, but in a, you know, in a fun and sort of light way, really.
Terry Cook:So I'd be looking for that because that not only is good for your student, but I think when I'm under the test conditions myself of a standards check, that would relax me too.
Terry Cook:So I'd be looking at somebody who not only I'm helping, but who's going to help me in that situation too, so that my stress Levels can come down.
Terry Cook:It's.
Terry Cook:I think I could be wrong, but I think you're the first person to mention rapport in regards to this question.
Terry Cook:And it really resonates, I think you bob on.
Terry Cook:I always think back to my.
Terry Cook:The old style, part three that I took and I passed second time.
Terry Cook:And I probably told this before, but the, the first time I didn't feel like I had that rapport with the examiner and she wasn't doing anything wrong at all.
Terry Cook:She was literally just doing a job, but she was very formal and I just did not feel at ease for the entire test.
Terry Cook:Now, that's not why I failed.
Terry Cook:I failed because I wasn't good enough on the day, but it wasn't.
Terry Cook:It didn't help me.
Terry Cook:However, the second examiner I got was amazing.
Terry Cook:I can remember it pretty clearly.
Terry Cook:We came out, I think I said something about the test and she's like, oh, we'll speak about that in a minute.
Terry Cook:I was, how's your day?
Terry Cook:And straight away I'm relaxed.
Terry Cook:And we're walking up to the car and we got in car, we're talking about test and like when we.
Terry Cook:We switched.
Terry Cook:I can't remember what it's called, but you did like half of one test and half of the other.
Terry Cook:And she goes, if you want to get out for a minute, you can do.
Terry Cook:I'm like, actually, yes, that would be awesome.
Terry Cook:Please.
Terry Cook:Exactly.
Terry Cook:And, and that rapport.
Terry Cook:And I think that's a, you know, an underrated skill with students.
Terry Cook:Sometimes I think we're very quick to, to look at them and be like, well, you've said something that's annoying me or you've texted me or what?
Terry Cook:You've texted me a question mark.
Terry Cook:How dare you text me a question mark.
Terry Cook:We're no longer doing lessons.
Terry Cook:Rather than, you know, let's have a life.
Terry Cook:Anyway, that's a whole other episode.
Terry Cook:But yeah, good show.
Terry Cook:I like that.
Terry Cook:Of course, I am joined by the ever delightful Neil Wyman.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Neil?
Terry Cook:Hello, Terry.
Terry Cook:How you doing?
Terry Cook:All the better for your senior smiley face.
Terry Cook:I'm very glad to have you on because I've just started reading your new book.
Terry Cook:I know we just spoke about a little bit before I press recall, but I'm thoroughly enjoying.
Terry Cook:I highly recommend.
Terry Cook:I can only recommend the first two thirds at the minute.
Terry Cook:Well, it's.
Terry Cook:If you're enjoying it there, you're certainly on the right track.
Terry Cook:Want to move on a little bit because I want to ask you the question I ask everyone at the start of these episodes because I Think it's something that everyone worries about.
Terry Cook:And it's a question I see asked a lot on Facebook forums and, you know, even I get asked it.
Terry Cook:Who should we take?
Terry Cook:So who, who should we take to attend this check?
Terry Cook:Neil.
Terry Cook:Okay, so we should take a.
Terry Cook:I believe.
Terry Cook:And the words that I use is we should take an honest student.
Terry Cook:One that's got a little bit of an issue that we, you know, we can sort out, but we'll give you an honest answer when they've asked the question.
Terry Cook:And it's, you know, some of the honest people come up with really, really good conversations that you can actually have on that standards check and are going to learn from that and then move it forward.
Terry Cook:And that's, that's what I would say, take an honest student.
Terry Cook:One that's not going to try and not going to try and pass for you.
Terry Cook:But as a little bit of an issue, does that make sense?
Terry Cook:It makes complete sense.
Terry Cook:I mean, what's fascinating for me as well is this is the eighth trainer I've had on and asked this question and you've all given me a different answer, but kind of meaning the same thing.
Terry Cook:Just phrase it a different way.
Terry Cook:And I really like that one because I don't think I thought of it that way before because you could have that student comes on that's trying to help you.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And maybe almost trying too hard that can then cause a problem further down the line.
Terry Cook:So I do like that.
Terry Cook:I think it relates to if you got to learn a driver and they go in on tests and they think they know how the examiner wants them to drive.
Terry Cook:It's the same in the standards check.
Terry Cook:They think they know how you need or what you need to do to pass where you don't need that.
Terry Cook:You need an honest student that's just going to go and do what you need them to do.
Terry Cook:You just need them to be a learner driver, don't you?
Terry Cook:Yeah, that's right.
Terry Cook:And we're just taking a brief pass to give a shout out to a few of our latest signups too.
Terry Cook:The Instructor Podcast Premium, and they are James Parsons, Charlie and Bob Lewis.
Terry Cook:These fine folks have decided to upgrade their CPD and become even more awesome driving instructors.
Terry Cook:With a membership to the Instructor Podcast Premium and therefore have immediate access to hundreds of hours of video, audio and written training to help them become even more awesome instructors.
Terry Cook:So whether you're looking to grow your business, become a better driving director, or get some help looking after your mental health or mindset, sign up to the Instructor Premium There is currently a free weeks trial or you can get a 16% discount of an annual membership.
Terry Cook:To find out more, use the link in the show notes or head tothe Instructor podcast.com but I also want to take a moment to thank my Drive time for being sponsors of season nine of the instructor podcast.
Terry Cook:They are the industry's premium award winning business management app and they currently have a 30 day free trial.
Terry Cook:So make sure you go and check that out@mydrivetime.co.uk but for now let's get stuck back into the show.
Terry Cook:I am joined by the ever delightful Phil Hurst.
Terry Cook:How are we doing Phil?
Terry Cook:I'm doing very well, thanks.
Terry Cook:And you Terry?
Terry Cook:I'm doing great.
Terry Cook:Now I must admit, whenever I record these and I come to introduce the guest, when I'm getting to say name, my name, all my eyes always flick towards the name on the screen and it's almost like self doubt I'm going to get the name wrong.
Terry Cook:You've got your wife's name on the screen on the very near they call you wrong name then.
Terry Cook:So that could have been fun.
Terry Cook:A good way to start the show.
Terry Cook:But yeah, making your debut in the instructor podcast, I was delighted to have you on.
Terry Cook:And I'm going to start with the question I like to ask everyone on this show because it's a question that I see asked most by driving instructors about the standards check, which is who would you take to a standards check?
Terry Cook:I would take somebody I would like to take to a standards check.
Terry Cook:Somebody that I get on with well, but also somebody who has got problems in their driving because there are no problems in the driving.
Terry Cook:There's nothing to fix, therefore there's nothing to do, therefore there's nothing to mark, therefore you're not going to do particularly well on your standards check.
Terry Cook:So somebody you get on with, not necessarily your favorite person, certainly not the least favorite person because there'll be a lack of rapport and somebody maybe are trained to trained and carrying out a topic that the student needs some development with.
Terry Cook:It never ceases to amaze me that this question which I asked to everyone that comes on the show, I always get a slightly different answer.
Terry Cook:And the answer is always, the premise is always the same, but it's always phrased in a different way.
Terry Cook:And I find that fascinating because I think that the way different people phrase stuff resonates with obviously different listeners and different people.
Terry Cook:But it's, it's a question that fascinates me.
Terry Cook:I mean I saw the post on Facebook, you know, the lovely social Media site the other day asking that specific question, who should I take on my standards check?
Terry Cook:And the amount of comments that were just saying take this person and take this person and this.
Terry Cook:And it was like really, really directive with the answers.
Terry Cook:And I just couldn't help but feel sorry for the person that posted it because she'd been given 20 different answers and I didn't think any of them were actually relevant.
Terry Cook:I think I chipped in and I don't.
Terry Cook:I normally stay off post like that, but I think I chipped in with take the person that you trust the most eternal that's gonna, you know, you know, is reliable.
Terry Cook:So is that something you would value as well, making sure that you pick one of your reliable students if you like?
Terry Cook:I would.
Terry Cook:One that's keen and eager to learn, one that probably asks questions.
Terry Cook:And I guess if you have 25 pupils, you're narrowing your field down to about five or six already.
Terry Cook:And then you're looking at availability because if you've got a test on a Wednesday morning at 8:30, most of your students are school people, then there's going to be a small pool to work with.
Terry Cook:So yeah, availability is always part very important.
Terry Cook:But I've been one or two reserves as well.
Terry Cook:Very briefly.
Terry Cook:I had a PDI who passed his standards check on the day and his two candidates both let him down that morning.
Terry Cook:And so he rang a third candidate up in the hope they'd pick the phone up.
Terry Cook:And they dashed out of the shower to pick the phone up and said, yeah, oh yeah, I'll get dressed, I'll come along.
Terry Cook:And they turned up and this PDI passed his part three with somebody he never dreamed he was going to be taking.
Terry Cook:So I suppose if you're ready, it almost doesn't matter.
Terry Cook:And today we are joined by the ever delightful and wonderful Stuart Lockerie.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Stuart?
Terry Cook:I'm very well, Terry, how are you?
Terry Cook:All the better for seeing your smiley face.
Terry Cook:And I'm going to repeat for all my lovely listeners what I said to you before we started, because it's been playing on my mind a lot that you remind me of someone, not especially visually, although I did mention to you that I can see a tiny little bit of it.
Terry Cook:But the cool and calm Persona you have, and I mentioned this to you the expo we went to the other day and couldn't quite put my finger for some reason this morning your Persona reminds me of Han Solo.
Terry Cook:Do you know what, Terry?
Terry Cook:I'll take it, I'll take it.
Terry Cook:I mentioned my daughter's A huge Star wars fan.
Terry Cook:And at the end of the day, Han Solo is better than Yoda.
Terry Cook:So, you know, that's.
Terry Cook:I'll take Han Solo.
Terry Cook:I'll take that.
Terry Cook:Well, let's test the fairies, shall we?
Terry Cook:Let's test the fairies or Stuart, I love you.
Terry Cook:I don't know that we'll go with that.
Terry Cook:That works fine.
Terry Cook:Yeah, we'll stick with Han Solo, but yeah, I'm delighted to have you on today because today we are Talking about the 10th competency, which is the first one under teaching and learning strategies.
Terry Cook:So we're moving on from lesson planning and risk management into teacher learning strategies.
Terry Cook:But before we do, I like to ask everyone that comes on quite a specific question around who they would take.
Terry Cook:So if you had your standards checked tomorrow, what sort of people would you be taking?
Terry Cook:What sort of person would you be taking?
Terry Cook:What's your opinion on that?
Terry Cook:So my opinion is you need someone who is open and outgoing and fully comfortable in a coaching conversation.
Terry Cook:A coaching relationship.
Terry Cook:I train PDIs within my driving school and more often than not, the conversation starts with who not to take.
Terry Cook:I have to be honest.
Terry Cook:People want to take family members, people want to take partners, people want to take full license holders.
Terry Cook:And I think these are the main kinds of drivers that you want to avoid.
Terry Cook:I would be more than comfortable taking someone who I'd only met once or twice before.
Terry Cook:I don't actually teach learners anymore, but if I had a standards check tomorrow, I would speak to one of our instructors and I would ask to do a lesson just to get to know them and I would take them out and I would be asking questions.
Terry Cook:I would be asking about responsibility.
Terry Cook:You know, do they do their prep work in between lessons?
Terry Cook:Are they comfortable with goal setting conversations?
Terry Cook:Are they comfortable being asked to feedback on their own performance?
Terry Cook:That's, that's the only criteria I have if they're capable of engaging in a coaching conversation.
Terry Cook:I guess we're quite often fighting against that narrative that, that myth that people, it's not a mess.
Terry Cook:I don't, I don't know where it comes from.
Terry Cook:It's not a myth.
Terry Cook:That's not the right word.
Terry Cook:But people think that they have to take a decent driver to their standards check and someone who's not going to make mistakes.
Terry Cook:But in actual fact, that that's, that's what you want on your standards check.
Terry Cook:You want people to make mistakes so that you have the opportunity to fix it.
Terry Cook:So that's, that's less important than their ability to hold a conversation and be reflective in My opinion.
Terry Cook:I like that.
Terry Cook:But I am going to touch back on something you said about who you wouldn't take, you know, like the family member side of stuff, the friends and family.
Terry Cook:Why would you specifically avoid that?
Terry Cook:I guess through experience of sitting in on assessments of what we call mock part three tests with PDIs and actually sitting on part three tests that have been carried out with this kind of additional dynamic inside the car.
Terry Cook:I sat on an assessment recently in Glasgow and through no fault of the PDI, the, the PDAs learner had canceled that morning.
Terry Cook:It was a Saturday morning.
Terry Cook:The, the learner wasn't well and they used the.
Terry Cook:They asked their son to fill in and you know, very graciously, very kindly or very much told to, the son obliged and he got in the car and was a nice guy.
Terry Cook:He was 19, 20 years old.
Terry Cook:He was learning to drive with his mom who's training to be an instructor.
Terry Cook:But the dynamic was off right from the start because what you have is, it's not the first time I've experienced this.
Terry Cook:When you have a son or a daughter being taught by their parents, the son of the daughter is not scared to argue back in the way that a learner will not.
Terry Cook:A learner will sit there very quietly and adhere to that traditional driving instructor as the expert.
Terry Cook:I'm down here as the lowly learner, you know, here to have all this wisdom poured onto me.
Terry Cook:And the difference when you have a pupil not afraid to answer you back and well, no, I did check my minerals.
Terry Cook:No, I did, I did.
Terry Cook:You just weren't watching me.
Terry Cook:You know, it throws the pdi and there's no reason that could not happen in a standards check or a part three test.
Terry Cook:Because with the best bill in the world, the levels of respect between children and parents are maybe not what they are between a learner and a driving instructor.
Terry Cook:Similarly, with full license holders.
Terry Cook:I can't remember if you asked me about full license holders, but it's the same similar kind of issues.
Terry Cook:There can be a lack of respect because as we all know, experienced driving instructors all think they're brilliant driving instructors.
Terry Cook:So you have that you run that risk of challenging someone's driving and been faced with that kind of defensive kind of posture.
Terry Cook:Even if it doesn't come out in an argument, as it would perhaps from a younger person, you still might get a kind of subconscious defensive attitude or demeanor being taking place.
Terry Cook:And that's why fleet training can be difficult, because experienced drivers think that there is no problem, there is no problem.
Terry Cook:And so just for that, I'm not saying it's wrong.
Terry Cook:It might.
Terry Cook:There might be some people out there who can do it.
Terry Cook:Fleet.
Terry Cook:Fleet drivers, fleet trainers in particular will be very experienced at doing it.
Terry Cook:But for PDIs and ADIs, who don't normally teach full license holders, why would you add that additional element to your test?
Terry Cook:It's an unnecessary burden, I think.
Terry Cook:And today I am joined by the legend, the man himself, Howard Floyd.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Howard?
Terry Cook:I'm very good.
Terry Cook:Thank you for inviting me.
Terry Cook:You're someone that's been requested many a time.
Terry Cook:You've got a fan base, Howard.
Terry Cook:Why I'm flat.
Terry Cook:Thank you.
Terry Cook:There you go.
Terry Cook:All right, so I'm going to start off by asking you the question I ask everyone that comes on the show because it's.
Terry Cook:It's something that I see as a lot and it's something that I get asked a lot and it's around who we will take on the standards check.
Terry Cook:So I'll ask you that.
Terry Cook:Who would you take on a standards check?
Terry Cook:What type of pupil?
Terry Cook:Who would I take on a standards check?
Terry Cook:I would take someone that has done about 15 to 20 hours, ideally.
Terry Cook:So in terms of their progress, if we were talking about the progress record, like the one being there, being introduced to subjects to five, your sort of test standard independent, I'd want somebody who needs development but doesn't need new information.
Terry Cook:I wouldn't want to be teaching anything new and as probably all your listeners are aware that nor do the examiners want you to do anything, introduce a new subject.
Terry Cook:So they've been introduced to things and now we're going to pick something that they actually need and that we're going to go and develop so that some learning can take place.
Terry Cook:So for me, that would be someone around, you know, the 20 hour mark, not to say that I would exclude anyone that's done 30 hours or is nearly test standard, because as we all know, you may have someone that's got a test coming up and they need a bit of work to sort out to before their test.
Terry Cook:So.
Terry Cook:But definitely not a beginner and I would pick someone that I get on with, that we have good rapport because, you know, we all, we'll.
Terry Cook:I'm sure we all have this.
Terry Cook:Those pupils that when you look at your diary, you think more.
Terry Cook:This is going to be a long two hours.
Terry Cook:Maybe it's just me and so someone that the way the time would fly by where we.
Terry Cook:We get on and that they're responsive because I would.
Terry Cook:Well, actually this would tie into the competency that we're going to talk about someone that can think and respond and that can take a bit of accountability for their learning.
Terry Cook:They don't want it, they don't want to be spoon fed.
Terry Cook:I wouldn't.
Terry Cook:The worst situation would be like if I asked them what they felt about something or what they wanted to do.
Terry Cook:If they just said, well I don't know, you're the instructor, you tell me.
Terry Cook:I'll be like, right, then let's have an instructor led lesson.
Terry Cook:So yeah, I would want someone that I know would, that we get on with.
Terry Cook:Good rapport.
Terry Cook:Likes a bit of a laugh and a joke because I am a kind of, I know this, the standard check is a serious thing but I want my normal lessons to come through where I am kind of a bit, you know, sense of humor, have a joke, make them laugh, make them smile because I find that relaxes me and relaxes them as well.
Terry Cook:Once they get a little smile on their face then it's not also serious.
Terry Cook:You got this examiner in the bag.
Terry Cook:It all feels deadly serious.
Terry Cook:So just try and just chill out and relax.
Terry Cook:So someone like that would be my answer.
Terry Cook:I like it and I think that's good as well because for me, and I'm sure most people would get a bit nervous around the standards check.
Terry Cook:So if you are taking someone that you get on with and you got that good report, that's going to help put you at ease as well in it.
Terry Cook:Yeah, the human side of things, that would be most important because yeah, like I say somebody, someone with a chip on their shoulder or someone with an attitude that knows it all, it's going to be a hard slog.
Terry Cook:So yeah, and I have actually been guilty of taking someone that was a bit like that.
Terry Cook:I didn't really realize that at the time.
Terry Cook:It was only at the end the examiner said so how'd you think about that?
Terry Cook:And I said yeah, because he said she was hard work.
Terry Cook:He said how many times did you have to say about the mirrors?
Terry Cook:And then she's lying to you, literally lying to you.
Terry Cook:And you know, well done Howard for like sort of calling her out on it.
Terry Cook:But oh, he said, he said to I.
Terry Cook:He said I wouldn't have bought her if I had to do that.
Terry Cook:And I was like, yeah, I don't know why I did that.
Terry Cook:Anyway, that's a really good point and probably worth touching on for a second that you know, if you do get a learner like that, if you get a learner that happens to.
Terry Cook:Because someone sat in their back goes into their shell and doesn't want to talk and behaves differently.
Terry Cook:The examiner's not going to mark you down for that either.
Terry Cook:They're only going to mark you on what you do.
Terry Cook:So as long as you're trying to engage with that student and you're responding accordingly to what they're doing, that's not going to go against you in terms of marking, if you like.
Terry Cook:Yeah, exactly.
Terry Cook:So it didn't go against me.
Terry Cook:He was just like, she was hard work.
Terry Cook:She made you work for it today, Howard, I think, was his comment.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And then lying to you as well.
Terry Cook:Great.
Terry Cook:Did you check your mirrors?
Terry Cook:Then she goes, yeah, I said, did you?
Terry Cook:I didn't see it.
Terry Cook:I must have missed that one.
Terry Cook:I'll keep an eye on you and see if you do at the next junction.
Terry Cook:How's that sound?
Terry Cook:The opposite to what mine said to me, which was everything that went wrong, say, was your fault, not hers.
Terry Cook:I'm like, oh, thanks.
Terry Cook:That's what the examiner said.
Terry Cook:Yes, yes.
Terry Cook:While the student was in the car as well.
Terry Cook:Not during my feedback while the student was there, which was lovely.
Terry Cook:But either way, I am joined today by Tom Stenson, who, if I've got this correct, is the head of training for the ADI ngc.
Terry Cook:Correct, yes.
Terry Cook:Excellent.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Tom?
Terry Cook:Thank you for joining us today.
Terry Cook:Thank you very much for having me.
Terry Cook:Well, let's, let's get stuck in because I'm going to ask you the first question that I like to ask all the, the traders that come on here, which is, who would you say for a standard tracker, who would you recommend ADI for a standard check?
Terry Cook:Okay, I'm going to change that just a little bit, if that's all right.
Terry Cook:Before I answer, go for it.
Terry Cook:And what I think we should be aiming for as an industry is that we can take anyone.
Terry Cook:So my philosophy is that if the DVSA rang me up tomorrow and said, you've got a standards check, not that it would do for a Saturday, but you've got a standards check, I should be able to pick anyone off the street and go and deliver a client centered lesson.
Terry Cook:So every time I go on a lesson or a training session, that's what I try and aim for.
Terry Cook:Now, I'm not saying that we would necessarily go and get 51 out of 51 by doing that, but Matt's kind of my guide and when I'm training instructors or PDIs, I kind of talk about that as well and say that's where we should be aiming.
Terry Cook:So as I'm on audit I don't have to do a standards check, but on my last one, I did actually take my most troublesome learner and she had, she's, she was a.
Terry Cook:She is a lovely lady, but she had many issues which challenged me as a trainer and I thought, I tell you what, I'm going to showcase my skills.
Terry Cook:I'm going to take this young lady along and.
Terry Cook:And there we go.
Terry Cook:I like it.
Terry Cook:And it's interesting as well because I was thinking about this recently and I'll do a bit of soul search and a bit of self reflection and I realized that if I went for a standards check or when I went for a standard check, I didn't like taking one of my learners because I felt like I was being judged by two people then.
Terry Cook:And I've got a bit of a phobia on being judged.
Terry Cook:So I'm judged by the examiner in the back and I'm judged by the learner because they're looking at me different because it's a different scenario.
Terry Cook:And I thought, you know, I think I would prefer doing it with a random stranger.
Terry Cook:I would rather turn up and just have a student thrust upon me and then I have to deliver a lesson to that student and I.
Terry Cook:No idea how well I'd.
Terry Cook:Well, I think I'd do quite well, actually, because that's what you do somewhat the first time you meet a student.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:But, yeah, I think I would actually prefer that.
Terry Cook:So it's interesting you say that.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:Have you.
Terry Cook:Do you get resistance when you give that opinion?
Terry Cook:Because I hear a lot of people giving sort of slightly counter opinions for that.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:In fact, I, I chatted to somebody recently because they rang me up, they're looking at going on audit and they wanted some advice and I gave them that statement and they were like, really?
Terry Cook:Should you be saying that?
Terry Cook:I said, well, why not?
Terry Cook:You know, we, we have to recognize the OWL test.
Terry Cook:It's a minimum standard, you know, part three, standards check.
Terry Cook:There are minimum standard, there are standards well above that we could aim for.
Terry Cook:And so to be at the stage where you feel comfortable enough to say, actually, I could pick somebody off the street and I could go and give a good quality lesson.
Terry Cook:Might not be my world's best lesson, but I could go and give a good quality lesson.
Terry Cook:I think that's a great thing.
Terry Cook:But yeah, I've spoken to other trainers about this and I've had some interesting looks.
Terry Cook:Without going off on a tangent, I think we're very lucky in our industry because I've been in other jobs where I don't just get reassessed every four years, potentially.
Terry Cook:I'm reassessed several times a year, and I don't get to go and pick who I take for that reassessment, which is what we get to do now.
Terry Cook:We get to pick potentially one of maybe 10, 20, 30 learners that we've got.
Terry Cook:And I think that's very fortunate for our industry to be able to do that.
Terry Cook:That is interesting.
Terry Cook:I don't think I would be comfortable taking my most troublesome student, but I think the reason I'd say that is because I know I'll be nervous anyway.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:So it's like I need.
Terry Cook:And again, I think most of my nerves come from the fear of being judged, and it is a bit of a phobia.
Terry Cook:But.
Terry Cook:So I think I'd want to take someone that would help settle me down a bit.
Terry Cook:But as we're talking now, I'm thinking maybe, maybe when I get.
Terry Cook:Because I will get a standard check at some point, I will see if I can get someone I've never taught before and just see, because what's the worst that's going to happen?
Terry Cook:I'll fail, and then I get well past next time, you know, so maybe I could be interesting or maybe I'm making a rod for my own back there.
Terry Cook:I don't know.
Terry Cook:Yeah, you know, I think you've got to be comfortable with it.
Terry Cook:I mean, part of it is my philosophy in life.
Terry Cook:I like to be able to push myself.
Terry Cook:And when I first qualified, I thought I was a good instructor until the standards check came along and I failed.
Terry Cook:And that, for me, was probably a defining point in my career, um, because it.
Terry Cook:It really made me look at what I was doing and how I was doing it.
Terry Cook:So I then took another standards check straight through, and then I spent time retraining, basically.
Terry Cook:And so when I went in for that standards check, I thought, right, I'm going to push myself to the limits here and see what.
Terry Cook:See what I'm capable of doing to prove to myself that I can do it.
Terry Cook:And I'm very much looking forward to this one because we are joined by someone making their instructor podcast debut, and that is Craig Nixon.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Craig?
Terry Cook:Thank you.
Terry Cook:Yeah, I'm very well, thank you.
Terry Cook:Yourself?
Terry Cook:Yes.
Terry Cook:All about ever seeing your smiley face, and I'm delighted to have you on board.
Terry Cook:Do I want to ask you the question I ask everyone when they come on this, which is, who would you take on a standards check if you, you know, what would your advice be around who to take on a standard check and potentially would it differ to a part 3?
Terry Cook:For me personally wouldn't differ from part 3 or standards check purely does the individual need some development in either skill set or topic?
Terry Cook:That's how I would and it might sound like a very simplistic answer, but that's how I would come to my decision as to who to take.
Terry Cook:So I often have taken a full license holder to my standards checks or check test as they used to be.
Terry Cook:And the reason for that was because I was working in police driving school at the time and it just lent itself to it quite nicely.
Terry Cook:So a full license holder developing on their higher processing mental skills, if you like, is always a good subject to work on in, in my opinion.
Terry Cook:That said, I've also taken learner drivers to a standards check who specifically need development in one area.
Terry Cook:Maybe observations or mirror checks.
Terry Cook:Think about the umbrella of observations and everything that falls underneath it.
Terry Cook:Keeping a nice broad subject because that will then lend itself to nice open Q and A and if necessary, some pointed discussion to transfer learning and responsibility.
Terry Cook:I like that someone that needs to develop somewhere.
Terry Cook:But I mean, you said an interesting thing about that.
Terry Cook:You took a full license holder because that's what you worked on a lot.
Terry Cook:Would you advise someone who doesn't work regularly with full license holders, maybe someone that's almost exclusively learners, would you advise them to focus on taking a learner, you know, someone they're more familiar with?
Terry Cook:That's a great question.
Terry Cook:And yes, I would advise that purely because like I said, for me personally, I've got my so set of skills of what I want to deliver.
Terry Cook:For somebody who's more familiar with learners to then start taking a full license holder, the question sets can be too low.
Terry Cook:For example, you might ask a question that's too too low for a full license holder, but it's just right for a learner driver, for example.
Terry Cook:So an example of that being some traffic lights in the distance.
Terry Cook:We see them as instructors and we think those lights are on green, they're going to change.
Terry Cook:The instructor might ask the full license holder what you're expecting the traffic lights to do as an example.
Terry Cook:You know, it's quite a simplistic example, but that question is too low for a full license holder.
Terry Cook:It might be all right for a learner driver who's just venturing onto a busy road for the first time.
Terry Cook:So yes, the answer is I think it would depend if you're used to learners, then take somebody that you are familiar with and who needs some development Based on the journey so far, good show.
Terry Cook:And because I still see a lot of instructors really keen to take a full license holder to standards check.
Terry Cook:You know, they come around Saturday and it seems like that's just what they do.
Terry Cook:You know, you see the social media posts, you get people coming to you.
Terry Cook:Why do you think instructors gravitate towards a full license or standards check, even if that's not what they regularly teach?
Terry Cook:Think there's a common misconception that it's going to be one, easier and two, I think, because maybe, maybe people are a little bit unsure of their own abilities when going for a standards check.
Terry Cook:And that's not me being, you know, unfair.
Terry Cook:It's just I was unsure and obviously we've all been sure at certain points.
Terry Cook:And I think if you, if you're a little bit unsure, it's a case of I'll take it.
Terry Cook:I might take.
Terry Cook:I'll take a full license holder.
Terry Cook:Yeah, I'll take a full license holder because I don't need to worry about controlling the car.
Terry Cook:You know, they can control the car, and I think a lot of it falls into that responsibility mode of they can control the car for themselves, whereas with a learner, okay, they should be able to control the car to a large degree for themselves when taking somebody for a standards check.
Terry Cook:But if we know somebody's got a full license and we know they can actually drive the vehicle because we've seen them do it, it's an easier option, isn't it?
Terry Cook:Definitely.
Terry Cook:I know from my perspective as well, I don't gravitate towards full license holder, but it kind of tickles it back in my brain because it's like if I take one of my learners and let's say, for example, I failed, and I've then got a learner that's just seen me fail, I take a full light, you know, take a friend or somebody, don't matter if they see me fail.
Terry Cook:But a learner, so wonder if that plays a part.
Terry Cook:But, you know, I don't.
Terry Cook:I think maybe, lots of.
Terry Cook:Maybe that does as well.
Terry Cook:No, I think, I think you're probably right there, Terry.
Terry Cook:I think that probably does as well.
Terry Cook:You know, there's, there's a.
Terry Cook:The inner chimp.
Terry Cook:I'm sure you've read the chimp paradox, and, you know, the inner chimp will be eating away at the mind there.
Terry Cook:What if you fail?
Terry Cook:The learner's going to know you fail, you know, so that's a potential.
Terry Cook:It might be a psychological approach as well.
Terry Cook:My chimps like A gorilla at the minute.
Terry Cook:And to help us take a deep dive into this competency, we are joined by the ever delightful Laura Morris.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Laura?
Terry Cook:I am good, thank you.
Terry Cook:How are you?
Terry Cook:All the better for seeing your smiley face, obviously, and delighted that you can join us today.
Terry Cook:And we're going to kick on with a question that I like to ask everyone that comes on here and that's about who you would take to a standards check.
Terry Cook:So I'm keen to know, who will you take to a standards check and would that change or be any different if it was a part three?
Terry Cook:It's a good question.
Terry Cook:I've been thinking about that and I think my general advice to anyone who is trying to choose a pupil is to make sure you have someone who's obviously available.
Terry Cook:You know, just because your standards check or your part three is booked for a Tuesday at 2:00, you don't have to take your Tuesday 2:00 people.
Terry Cook:So choosing someone who is reliable and available, quite often I hear people say, take your best picture, and I think that can sometimes be misinterpreted.
Terry Cook:Exactly.
Terry Cook:The better your pupil is, the better you have to be as an instructor.
Terry Cook:You have to be so much more on it, so much more proactive, and a lot of people fall down with that.
Terry Cook:So that's something to definitely consider.
Terry Cook:I think also someone who showcases your best skills.
Terry Cook:If you've got a people that you have good rapport with, who you work well with, then I would be taking them.
Terry Cook:Someone who really showcases your own skills and challenges you in a good way.
Terry Cook:I think also in terms of whether that's different From a Part 3 to a Standards check, I think generally I'd give the same advice.
Terry Cook:My only different bit of advice I might give to an adi, taking a standards check would be about taking someone that you or the type of people that you work the most well with.
Terry Cook:So if you work mostly with learners, then take a learner.
Terry Cook:But some ADIs out there are actually instructor trainers and they're training PDIs quite a lot.
Terry Cook:So actually, if you're working mostly with PDIs on their part two, take a PDI in your part two to your standards check, which you can do once a PDI passes their part two, you can't take them on your standards check.
Terry Cook:But if that's your bread and butter, if that's what you're doing the most of, then take a PDI on their part too.
Terry Cook:But generally you want someone who's going to showcase your skills, going to challenge you in the right ways and show off your strengths and not show off your weaknesses.
Terry Cook:So, yeah, I like that answer.
Terry Cook:I think.
Terry Cook:I think that's the most comprehensive answer we've had to that question so far.
Terry Cook:And the thing I want to touch back on, actually, one thing you said that I don't really think I considered before is the idea of taking your best pupil.
Terry Cook:That can be harder, you know, the better the pupil.
Terry Cook:And it's like, I just thought then, you know, if you take a pupil that's really good in the period of 10 minutes, they only might make one mistake.
Terry Cook:If you miss that mistake, then you've missed your opportunity.
Terry Cook:Whereas if you take someone that's making several, you could miss a mistake, but you still get 90% of everything covered.
Terry Cook:I think that's a good point.
Terry Cook:I think also in that respect, your best pupil is best when they're with you in their lessons.
Terry Cook:As soon as you get an examiner in the back, quite often your best pupil falls apart.
Terry Cook:So actually, you're saying that they might only make one fault, but you've got the risk of them falling apart.
Terry Cook:And actually, my advice to anyone taking apart through a standards check is whoever, whichever people you choose, get someone sat in the back of that car.
Terry Cook:Could even just be a local instructor, someone that you're friends with or a trainer.
Terry Cook:So just get someone in the back of your car to see how your pupil reacts.
Terry Cook:And as much as it is about getting feedback on your own training, your own teaching, but see how your pupil reacts.
Terry Cook:And I've done this with PDIs before, got in the back of a car with their chosen part three pupil and their part three pupil has crumbled to the point.
Terry Cook:We've had tears, we've had to stop and we're thinking, yeah, this is not the people we're taking to part three.
Terry Cook:So your best pupil is best with you.
Terry Cook:And like you say that, you know, they're making.
Terry Cook:Generally they're making less faults and they're better.
Terry Cook:You have to be better, you have to dig deeper, you have to be so much more on it and proactive.
Terry Cook:So I'm joined by the inspirational Phil Cowley.
Terry Cook:Do you see what I did there, Phil?
Terry Cook:Do you like that?
Terry Cook:I like it, yeah.
Terry Cook:That's nice, but no.
Terry Cook:Thank you for joining us today.
Terry Cook:We've spoke about having you on here for a little while now, so it's good to get you on and I'm going to ask you the question I ask all the traders that come on here, which is, who would you take to a standards check?
Terry Cook:Phil?
Terry Cook:Yeah, I think, I think first of all, actually, thanks for having me on and actually genuinely, because I think when I first started listening to this series of podcasts, I was an instructor trainer, but I wasn't necessarily doing anything nationally.
Terry Cook:And really way back then, because it was a long 20, you started these, this series, I thought I really would like to do one of these episodes.
Terry Cook:So I've ticked off a bucket list goal by coming on the episode.
Terry Cook:So I'm proper chuffed because first and foremost, I'm a fan of the podcast.
Terry Cook:So, yeah, I'm happy to be on.
Terry Cook:So who would I take to a standards check?
Terry Cook:And I think I probably just think back to the people I did take to my last standards check actually, and he had all the characteristics of the person I would take to a standard check, which is someone who you have good rapport with.
Terry Cook:I think that's got to be, got to be a given.
Terry Cook:You've got to have that kind of give and take.
Terry Cook:Someone who is like freely and willing to ask questions and engage in the conversation with you.
Terry Cook:So the more you can kind of get out of, out of them.
Terry Cook:Now, I think I had a few people to choose from for that because I create that environment in my car.
Terry Cook:So I think actually if you are sat listening, I haven't got any of those pupils, then maybe it's about thinking about actually am I creating an environment in the car that allows people to ask questions and talk, talk and that can make a difference to your list of people you can choose from.
Terry Cook:I'd want someone reliable so not by people that's canceled several lessons because, because I don't like as much as I think you should be having a backup person just in case and then probably a backup to the backup.
Terry Cook:You don't want your first one bailing on you.
Terry Cook:So pick someone that is reliable.
Terry Cook:And then I think the other thing that sometimes doesn't get mentioned is someone that matches your style because you've got to kind of remember that as much as we make the lesson about the pupil's needs and we make the lesson about the pupil is still your test.
Terry Cook:So you want to showcase your, the best you.
Terry Cook:And if the best you is a pupil who's in the first 10 hours and you love that sort of lesson and you think, yeah, this is, this is where I kind of like show my best, then pick a pupil that's in the first 10, 10 hours or so.
Terry Cook:I know we need to have the wheels moving lesson, but you can if you can talk them out of the test center and into whatever scenario you need, that's absolutely fine.
Terry Cook:But if your favorite pupils are the ones that are four hours from driving for the driving test and you're just tweaking and you're asking all those in depth questions and you get them thinking and you're doing post test stuff and there's lots of and that's your kind of vibe and you love doing that sort of stuff, then pick a pupil that's at that level so that you can show the examiner the best version of you.
Terry Cook:Now yes, you should be able to do all of those things as an instructor, but if I'm going to be showcasing myself, I'm going to pick my favorite stuff.
Terry Cook:So yeah, I like that.
Terry Cook:And a few key points I'm going to touch back on one you finish on then showcasing yourself.
Terry Cook:That's what it isn't it.
Terry Cook:It's that opportunity to show how good we are.
Terry Cook:It's almost like when we talk to a learner about the driving on the test should just be a normal drive, but why not use it to show how good you are?
Terry Cook:Because there will be times when you're driving to and from work where you know, maybe that unrests on the gear stick for a little bit longer than it should do because you're a bit tired or whatever.
Terry Cook:Well, why not use that opportunity to show the driving test examiner how could you?
Terry Cook:Why not use the opportunity standards check or a part three to show that examiner, well, this is how good I am and I think taking the right pupil contributes towards that.
Terry Cook:And you mentioned about the rapport and you want to take a student that asks questions there and at least that's kind of what we touched on today, whether people's queries followed up and answered.
Terry Cook:And you know, I had an immediate example sprung to my mind of a pupil that she's passed now admittedly, but when she first came to me she was quite honest and said I don't like talking, I don't want to talk at all.
Terry Cook:And it probably took like 20 or 30 hours before she started asking any questions.
Terry Cook:And even then on lessons it were I'd ask her at start, are we, are we chatting today or are we, you know, are you just going to be in listening mode?
Terry Cook:And it would depend and you won't want to take that student to a standard check, would you?
Terry Cook:Because that's not giving you the opportunity to showcase yourself to the your best.
Terry Cook:But also you're not going to be able to answer the queries that they ask because they won't Ask any.
Terry Cook:Yeah, yeah, there's certainly a list of pupils that I wouldn't take to a standards check, actually.
Terry Cook:Interestingly, I don't.
Terry Cook:I'd probably even.
Terry Cook:I said rapport's good.
Terry Cook:I probably wouldn't take my daughter when I, when I was training her because it's almost too personal a relationship and I think that I maybe lose my professionalism sometimes in that scenario and I know people have taken family members and it can work and, and, and I, and then it's that, do I tell the examiner?
Terry Cook:And I'm like, yeah, absolutely, tell the examiner.
Terry Cook:Because when you start calling them love, he's going to want to know why and not be marking you down for being a bit of a weirdo.
Terry Cook:So I think there's, it's, yeah, it's pick what's right for you.
Terry Cook:Like we talk about, again, people sort of like, particularly more so for probably part three than standards check.
Terry Cook:I think this.
Terry Cook:Some people will take a full license folder because maybe they haven't got any pupils or they can't find the right pupil.
Terry Cook:And some people think it's a, it's a cop out because there's going to be less mistakes.
Terry Cook:But again, it's, it's not necessarily the right person for you because that's not what you're used to training.
Terry Cook:It's not your wheelhouse, basically.
Terry Cook:It's not what you're.
Terry Cook:What, what you're used to sort of kind of asking those questions and talking to qualified drivers.
Terry Cook:You start treating someone who's a full license holder like a learner, you're going to get marked out.
Terry Cook:And today I am joined by the ever delightful Becky Seton.
Terry Cook:How we doing, Becky?
Terry Cook:Terry.
Terry Cook:I'm good, thank you.
Terry Cook:How are you all about?
Terry Cook:Ever seen your smiley face, obviously.
Terry Cook:And we're going to kick off with a question I ask all the people that come on here and they've all given good answers so far, so no pressure, but who would you take to a standard checker?
Terry Cook:Who would you advise someone to a standard check or part three?
Terry Cook:And would it be different for a standard check or part three?
Terry Cook:I think that you need to take someone that needs to learn something.
Terry Cook:Sounds obvious, right?
Terry Cook:Take someone that needs to learn something.
Terry Cook:You know, the point of a Standard Chakra Part 3 is, you know, you're being assessed that you know, you can help your learner achieve something safely, make sure it's appropriately and that you deserve to get paid for it.
Terry Cook:None of that can happen if there's not a genuine need.
Terry Cook:If your learner doesn't actually need something.
Terry Cook:And you know that learner can be anyone.
Terry Cook:There's a lot of discussion whether you should take your regular pupil that you have at Friday at 8am or whether you should take your wife or your husband because they're available.
Terry Cook:Doesn't really matter too much as long as they've got a need and you are being appropriate and specific with that learner at that time.
Terry Cook:Do you think too many instructors still have that fear that, oh, God, what if my student does something wrong on a standards check?
Terry Cook:Absolutely.
Terry Cook:And you know, even just the thought of you've got your Power 3 coming up, you've got your standards check coming up already, you've got fear anyway.
Terry Cook:That's just, that's just a given.
Terry Cook:So then when we start to go, oh, my God, but who do I take?
Terry Cook:What if they, what if they're better?
Terry Cook:What if they're worse?
Terry Cook:What if they're not exactly what I think that they're going to be?
Terry Cook:Then you're maybe you're not quite ready for your partner standards check.
Terry Cook:If you're thinking things like that.
Terry Cook:It would be a hell of a lot easier for us all if we go to this thinking it doesn't matter.
Terry Cook:It doesn't matter what fault they make.
Terry Cook:It doesn't matter whether they're better or whether they're worse because I've got this, I'm going to boss it no matter what.
Terry Cook:And you know when you hear people say, who shouldn't take for part three?
Terry Cook:I get that a lot.
Terry Cook:And Becky, what's your advice?
Terry Cook:Who should I take for my part three?
Terry Cook:I will always say, take someone that needs to learn something.
Terry Cook:Take someone that's got a need.
Terry Cook:And you know, everybody's got a need at some point, but make sure that you're ready for it.
Terry Cook:If you're feeling petrified, then maybe you're not ready.
Terry Cook:Maybe we actually need to go back even further.
Terry Cook:Go back a step and make sure that you're really understanding of what's expected of you for this test.
Terry Cook:Make sure that you're really understanding and okay with the training that you're getting so that no matter what curveballs, potential curveballs, or no curveballs that your learner throws at you, you've got this.
Terry Cook:You can do it.
Terry Cook:Do you think that's where we can use curiosity to replace fear like you said, then, oh, God, what if this happens?
Terry Cook:What if this happens?
Terry Cook:If we change that from oh, God, what if this happens to, ooh, wonder what could happen today?
Terry Cook:I think we need to implement that shift somehow.
Terry Cook:We've talked before about failure and how we need to be curious about our failures.
Terry Cook:And that's a brilliant example.
Terry Cook:What if our learner fails to achieve what they were going to achieve on our pathway standard share?
Terry Cook:What if our learner exceeds what they want to achieve?
Terry Cook:What could happen?
Terry Cook:Let me be curious about that.
Terry Cook:Let me have a think what I could do.
Terry Cook:Let me have a think of where I could go.
Terry Cook:Have I got a bag of tricks up my sleeve that I can just deal with it and I can handle it in that moment, at that time, on that day with the examiner behind me.
Terry Cook:And if you're not feeling confident enough, just invest in yourself a little bit more.
Terry Cook:Just do a little bit more work before you go for it.
Terry Cook:See, this is where I think we can get excited about lessons as well, because I know it's the thing that keeps me excited, not knowing what's going to happen.
Terry Cook:You know, if I've gone out and planned a standards check and mapped out a route and then, you know, this is where I'm going to go and this is what's going to happen here.
Terry Cook:Well, first of all, I'll be bored going to it and if I'm bald, I'm less engaged.
Terry Cook:So even if it went correctly, I would bold sense us.
Terry Cook:I'm not engaging with a student.
Terry Cook:But if I'm going in being like, okay, what, what's going to happen?
Terry Cook:What are we going to learn today?
Terry Cook:I think just reframing, that's a big thing in it.
Terry Cook:Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Cook:And you know, we don't plan every lesson to a T.
Terry Cook:We, we're really good at our jobs.
Terry Cook:We, we will pick our learner up and we'll have a chat and we'll decide what's needed and we'll have a chat about where we're going to go off and do it and we'll decide how we're going to do it.
Terry Cook:And then off we part, all of a sudden we hear part three of sanity check and we go, oh my God, this is why, this is what I need to do to the letter, because I'm good at this.
Terry Cook:I now need to find a learner that's, that can do that, but then that's not being appropriate for the learner's needs at that time.
Terry Cook:So going back to my original point, just take someone that needs to learn something and then fit everything else around the learner.
Terry Cook:Don't just make the learner fit what you want to do.
Terry Cook:And today I am joined by a bona fidel legend of the industry the president of the NJC and someone whose book helped me pass my standards checker, Lynne Barry.
Terry Cook:How are we doing, Lyn?
Terry Cook:Hi, Terri.
Terry Cook:I'm absolutely fine, thank you.
Terry Cook:Looking forward to doing this podcast today.
Terry Cook:So really, really tough to have you on.
Terry Cook:And as I said today we're going to be talking about competency of what's the pupil encouraged to reflect on their own performance.
Terry Cook:But before we start on start, I always like to ask about who you would take on the standards check.
Terry Cook:So who would you take on a standards check and would that differ if it was a part three?
Terry Cook:Well, bearing in mind, I've actually done, because I've been around here a long time, quite a few of these now and audit ones as well.
Terry Cook:The choice of pupils I think really, really vital.
Terry Cook:And I think it's not about taking your best pupil.
Terry Cook:I've learned that it's about taking somebody that on the day will give you something to work with.
Terry Cook:So it's got to be somebody that you know will naturally make faults, isn't 100% perfect.
Terry Cook:Just taking your best pupil in the hope that they won't make mistakes is not the way to go at all.
Terry Cook:Personally, I like to take somebody who is more at a partly trained level so that I've got items that I'm going to be helping them with.
Terry Cook:They've got knowledge to learn.
Terry Cook:There's a lot we can get into that not somebody in the extremely early stages because unfortunately if they do get nervous, then the whole lesson can just turn into a we can't control the car very well lesson, which is okay, we can deal with that, but it's not what I would really want.
Terry Cook:So I think somebody that's a bit further on, but still partly trained train pupils near a test or somebody that's done a mock test.
Terry Cook:And again, you've got something actual to work on there.
Terry Cook:I think that would be good too.
Terry Cook:I'm not a great fan of taking full license holders because I have to say I think that's a slightly different technique.
Terry Cook:And from experience of helping people who have taken full license holders, they're not always people who have taught a lot of full license holders.
Terry Cook:If you have, then absolutely fine.
Terry Cook:And so some ADIs would get away with that quite easily.
Terry Cook:But I think as a PDI doing a part three, a lot of them just haven't had that experience of taking full license holders.
Terry Cook:So you've got to be realistic about your own capabilities when you choose your pupil.
Terry Cook:So basically somebody you can work with, somebody that's got some learning to do somebody that will, you know, be reliable, that wants to come and help you because you've got a good rapport together.
Terry Cook:And just where you both feel comfy in lessons normally, because then on the day, that pupil will actually help you.
Terry Cook:And that might sound slightly strange, but I do remember on the.
Terry Cook:One of the final standards checks that I did before I went back and started doing audit ones, there were two examiners in the back.
Terry Cook:When we got there, there was another examiner that had come to mark the examiner and that did.
Terry Cook:I started to feel quite anxious about that.
Terry Cook:And the examiner came out to explain what was happening, then left us for five minutes before we started.
Terry Cook:And my pupil looked at me and just said.
Terry Cook:And he was lovely.
Terry Cook:And he just said, it's okay, Lyn, we can do this.
Terry Cook:And I just thought that's the sort of pupil.
Terry Cook:Because of course we did do it.
Terry Cook:And that's the sort of pupil that you want, somebody that's going to help you in the right way, if that makes sense.
Terry Cook:It does make sense, and I like the answer.
Terry Cook:I do want to touch back briefly on the full license holder thing because I think this is something that comes up a lot.
Terry Cook:And I got an interest, really interesting message about these recently with someone that wanted me to do an episode on how to work with full license holders, which it's something that I'd not come across before.
Terry Cook:But one of the things I did and I think I'd do again if I had a standard check is I get my learner and then I get a backup learner, and then I get a backup kind of friend, family member, whatever, who is a full license holder.
Terry Cook:So if need be, I've got that as a definitive backup.
Terry Cook:So even though I wouldn't really want to do it with that person, it's still there as an option.
Terry Cook:But in that scenario, do you think it would be worth.
Terry Cook:So say your first two students let you down in that scenario?
Terry Cook:Do you think it would be worth contact the examiner and saying, look, I've been let down by these two.
Terry Cook:I have got a full license.
Terry Cook:What I can bring.
Terry Cook:It's not normally someone I work with.
Terry Cook:Do you still want to go ahead?
Terry Cook:I think I would explain that when I got there to see the examiner.
Terry Cook:I don't think I drink up beforehand, because full license holder is definitely somebody that you can take if you really feel uncomfortable with it.
Terry Cook:I don't think you should be taking that person, to be honest.
Terry Cook:But I'm a great believer in plan A and plan B and plan C.
Terry Cook:Just in case.
Terry Cook:Yeah, definitely, because that did happen to me on one.
Terry Cook:The girl I was taking and very happy with fell down the stairs at school and she badly hurt her ankle so there was no way she could drive a car that next day.
Terry Cook:She did this the day before.
Terry Cook:So if I hadn't had plan B in place and that person to ring up, I would have, you know, I'd have been in a mess that day.
Terry Cook:I'm in a position where I've only had one.
Terry Cook:I've been an ADI for seven years now and I've had one.
Terry Cook:So we'll see what happens next time around.
Terry Cook:But yeah, I appreciate that.
Terry Cook:In fact, I will just tag on.
Terry Cook:Would that differ from standards check to part three?
Terry Cook:Would that answer be the same for both?
Terry Cook:I think for part three, I'm definitely not particularly happy on full license holders because I don't think most PDIs have had the experience with them.
Terry Cook:I had somebody recently who told me that they were going for their part three and it was quite clear they'd come for training but they knew what they were going to do and they, it was set, you know, it was set in stone.
Terry Cook:This is what I'm doing.
Terry Cook:Even though there was sort of a month away, I'm taking a full license holder and we're going on the motorway.
Terry Cook:And I had reservations about both the motorway, particularly as it was a two lane one because that's not that much difference from a dual carriageway in many respects, but also the full license hold.
Terry Cook:Because my question was how many people have you taken on a motorway and done motorway tuition with?
Terry Cook:And the answer was, well, just a relative, just once.
Terry Cook:So why would you do that when you've been teaching?
Terry Cook:Most people on trainee licenses will have been teaching all sorts of pupils.
Terry Cook:Take one of those pupils, think of those pupils as somebody that you can take.
Terry Cook:So for pdis the answer would for me be different and I certainly wouldn't recommend full license holders, although I'm sure there'll be somebody out there that is going to tell me that they have taken one and it's been okay.
Terry Cook:If you're asking for a recommendation, I wouldn't do that.
Terry Cook:I must admit that that does sound like something I would do.
Terry Cook:I have these amazing ideas that are often at the wrong time.
Terry Cook:It's like there's a time and a place do that.
Terry Cook:Maybe not on the standard check or part three, but yeah, that does sound like something I would do and scrape it and then regret it afterwards.
Terry Cook:So I want to give a big thank you to all 17 trainers that joined me for this series.
Terry Cook:It was something that I put a lot of time and effort into and I ran it over a few years, mainly because I didn't just want to chuck out 17 competencies and everyone go and listen to all 17 and then try and fix all 17 and all this stuff.
Terry Cook:I wanted the members of the Instructor Podcast Premium to be able to listen to one action it.
Terry Cook:Listen to one action it now, yes, admittedly there are now 17 available, so you can go and binge listen, but that's not what I encourage.
Terry Cook:I want members of my Premium membership to learn, to develop and look, let's be honest, the same as this podcast itself.
Terry Cook:You're not gonna love every episode, every topic isn't going to be for you.
Terry Cook:Every single thing isn't going to be the most amazing thing you've ever heard.
Terry Cook:But there is loads of stuff that could be for you.
Terry Cook:So if you want to find out, there's currently a free trial and we've currently got a nifty little offer on for the month of December.
Terry Cook:So head over to www.the instructorpodcast.com and again, I just want to thank all 17 of these trainers for joining me because it was fascinating listening to their different insights on these different competencies.
Terry Cook:And I'm not going to name all 17 because you'll hear them as you've gone through.
Terry Cook:But yeah, big thank you to those guys.
Terry Cook:Also thank you to my drive time for sponsoring the show.
Terry Cook:I love having these quality sponsors on the show, makes my life easier and highly advise you to go and check out my drive time.
Terry Cook:You can see Visit their website mydrivetime.co.uk I'm a user, I'm a member of what they do and I love it.
Terry Cook:And not giving you any specifics here other than just go and check it out, I think it's awesome.
Terry Cook:I'm sure you will do too.
Terry Cook:And lastly, I just want to thank everyone that took the time to recently donate to my fundraiser raising campaign for Road Safety Week and Break.
Terry Cook:We managed to raise over £1,700, which was in excess of my target that I set.
Terry Cook:So big thank you to anyone that donated that shared or even just sent me some words of support.
Terry Cook:It's all really appreciated, so big thank you for that.
Terry Cook:But for now, let's just keep raising standards.
Terry Cook:The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts in game changers about what drives them.
