Driving into the Future: The Role of Instructors in Autonomous Vehicles
Driving instructors need to embrace the evolving technology of vehicles, especially as we move closer to autonomous driving.
Terry Cook chats with Dr. Nick Reed, a leading expert in vehicle technology and road safety, about the crucial role instructors will play in the development and adoption of automated vehicles.
They discuss the importance of understanding driver assistance systems, safety ratings like Euro NCAP, and how instructors can educate learners about making informed choices when buying their first cars.
The conversation also highlights the need for a balance between automation and driver awareness, ensuring that safety features are utilized rather than disabled. This episode sheds light on how technology is reshaping the driving landscape and the responsibilities that come with it.
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Terry Cook welcomes Dr. Nick Reed to the Instructor Podcast as they delve into the evolving landscape of driving instruction amidst the rise of autonomous vehicles. With Dr. Reed's extensive background in road safety and mobility research, the conversation explores the significant role driving instructors will play in bridging the gap between traditional driving skills and the new technological advancements in vehicle automation. They discuss the importance of understanding and embracing modern driving assistance systems, emphasizing that while vehicles are becoming more automated, the responsibility of safe driving still rests with human operators. As they navigate through topics such as Euro NCAP safety ratings and the implications of new technologies on learner drivers, listeners gain insights into the essential skills that instructors must impart to ensure that new drivers are not only adept at operating vehicles but also aware of the technologies that support safe driving. The episode underscores the necessity for instructors to adapt their teaching methods to incorporate discussions about when to drive versus when to choose alternative transport options like walking or cycling, reflecting a broader shift towards safer road use.
Takeaways:
- Driving instructors will play a pivotal role in ensuring safe driving practices as vehicle automation evolves.
- The distinction between driver assistance technologies and full automation must be clearly understood by instructors.
- Vehicle safety features, such as emergency braking systems, are crucial for first-time car buyers.
- Understanding the Euro NCAP ratings can significantly impact the safety of new car purchases.
- Instructors should educate learners about the responsibilities that come with using advanced driver-assistance systems.
- Public perception of automated vehicles is often skeptical, emphasizing the need for education and trust-building.
Transcript
The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.
Terry Cook:Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.
Terry Cook:This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor.
Terry Cook:And as always, I am your average host, Terry Cook.
Terry Cook:And I'm delighted to be even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are back on track of our technology season as I'm joined by Dr.
Terry Cook:Nick Reed to discuss autonomous vehicles and why Dr.
Terry Cook:Reed thinks instructors play an important role in their evolution.
Terry Cook:Now we also take a look at the Euro NCAP safety ratings as well as getting some advice on learners buying their first car.
Terry Cook:And I'm delighted to have this technology season sponsored by my Drive Time, the industry's premium award winning business management app.
Terry Cook:Find out more@mydrivetime.co.uk and if you're enjoying these episodes, make sure you subscribe to the Instructor podcast email and WhatsApp channel to to keep up to date with all the latest releases and industry information.
Terry Cook:Now you can find links for those in the show notes or on the website www.the instructorpodcast.com but for now, let's get stuck into the show.
Terry Cook:So today we are joined by former Academy Director of the crl, Head of Mobility R and D at Bosch, Chief Road Safety Advisor for National Highways and current member of the Department for Transport Science and Advisory Council, Dr.
Terry Cook:Nick Reed.
Terry Cook:How we doing Nick?
Nick Reed:Hi Terry.
Nick Reed:Good to see you.
Terry Cook:Yeah, delighted to have you on a lot of titles there.
Terry Cook:So I'm pleased to have someone like yourself on to talk about this vehicle technology in particular safety aspects of it.
Terry Cook:But before we started we were talking a little bit and one of the things that you mentioned you kind of wanted to get across was the role instructors play in this.
Terry Cook:So I thought let's start with that.
Terry Cook:So what is the role instructors play?
Nick Reed:I think instructors have a huge potential role to play in the development of automated vehicles.
Nick Reed:So if I go back a step, you mentioned sort of some of my history there I worked when I started my career I was working at TRL looking at road safety and how we can reduce risk on the roads, looking at distraction, fatigue, alcohol, drugs, new technologies, road infrastructure and training.
Nick Reed:And in that work that was also at the time you started to see the self driving car projects emerging, the DARPA challenges in the U.S.
Nick Reed:these research programs where they were testing automated vehicles.
Nick Reed:And I realized that automation had a potentially huge role to play.
Nick Reed:A computer won't get drunk, it won't get tired, it won't get distracted.
Nick Reed:There is the potential there for that to have a massive impact in reducing the number of crashes we see on the road.
Nick Reed:So I was really pushing for that to be a research topic at TRL.
Nick Reed: And in the sort of late: Nick Reed:And I think they felt, oh yeah, we're, we're, we're kind of 98, 99% of the way to making a vehicle that can drive.
Nick Reed:And me coming from a like a psychology and a human factors background, I was a bit more cautious because I think that step between making a vehicle able to detect its hazards around it and then move forwards and backwards, steer left, steer right, that's, that's fantastic, that's amazing.
Nick Reed:But the step between that and being able to make a vehicle that can truly drive, you know, navigate in a complicated environment with pedestrians and cyclists, other traffic, 2 ton vehicle at high speed, that is a whole different level altogether.
Nick Reed:And I think that is the gap that instructors help us bridge that gap between, you know, the sort of pure engineering of making a vehicle move and being able to drive, being able to participate in a complex social dynamic environment.
Terry Cook:I'm intrigued by this, the idea of when we've got fully autonomous cars, that the role instructors will play there because, and this is an assumption on my part, but I'm assuming that when we get those self driving cars, you will still need to hold a license to sit in one of those behind a.
Nick Reed:Wheel essentially, it would certainly change.
Nick Reed:Right.
Nick Reed:So if it's a vehicle that's designed with no steering wheel, no pedals, and is always driven by the system on board, then it's like a taxi, it's like a bus.
Nick Reed:You won't need a license to operate that vehicle if you are purely a passenger.
Nick Reed:But if you at any point could or have to take control, then I think you will still need license of some form.
Nick Reed:Might be different to how it is today, but there will need to be some sort of certification to show you know what you're doing if you are going to take control of that vehicle.
Terry Cook:But as we are now, do you think that where driving instructors maybe need to embrace more is that technological side?
Terry Cook:Because I think back to when I learned to drive sort of 22 or 23 years ago, I think it would just knowing how the indicator worked was the extent of the technology I needed to know.
Terry Cook:But there's obviously so much More now.
Terry Cook:Do you think that we as instructors need to be embracing that more now and getting that across more?
Nick Reed:Absolutely.
Nick Reed:So I think we've got to be careful here about blurring the distinction between driver assistance systems and automation.
Nick Reed:And I think the role instructors can play.
Nick Reed:Right now it's about making sure drivers are aware that we don't have self driving vehicles at the moment.
Nick Reed:Even though vehicles will do a lot of driving assistance to the point of even the Blue Cruise, the Ford system, that is a hands free driving assistance system.
Nick Reed:So it will do adaptive cruise control and steer for you to the point you can take your hands off, but you are still the driver of that vehicle.
Nick Reed:You are still required to be alert and attentive and ready to resume control.
Nick Reed:So yeah, I think the role for instructors is making drivers aware of the support technologies that are there, but also the responsibilities that remain with the driver to make sure the vehicle is controlled safely.
Terry Cook:So a couple of things I want to touch back on there because you mentioned like there's no self driving cars on the road.
Terry Cook:And I first came across you on your course that you did for Copilot, which I advise all the instructors to go and check out.
Terry Cook:And you said on there that there's no self driving cars on the road, no fully self driving cars on the road.
Terry Cook:And that took me by surprise because I thought there was.
Terry Cook:So I'm wondering, is that me sort of not understanding or is that a misrepresentation by some of the car companies or a bit of both potentially.
Nick Reed:I think certainly there's a, there's a degree of, should we call it exaggeration, Terry, in terms of capability and aspiration actually.
Nick Reed:So, I mean, I think we're sort of dancing around it.
Nick Reed:But Tesla, of course they have a, a system that is, was called full self driving.
Nick Reed:Now supervised full self driving.
Nick Reed:And you know, if you're a layperson, you come to a system that says it's full self driving, that sounds like it's going to do all the driving for you.
Nick Reed:But if you have that system, there are lots of checks and balances that, that you're required to sign up to, to say, yes, I am going to be alert and attentive while this system is in operation.
Nick Reed:So the responsibility still sits with the person in the driving seat for safe control of that vehicle.
Nick Reed:Ultimately, in the future, they want that system to truly be full self driving to the point where you don't have, you're not responsible for the vehicle, it is doing everything for you.
Nick Reed:But we are not at that point yet some say we might never get to that point with Tesla in its current formation.
Nick Reed:Let's see.
Nick Reed:You know, they're certainly very ambitious about it, but no, we, there are no self driving vehicles for sale and in use.
Nick Reed:Certainly in the UK at the moment.
Nick Reed:In the US there is Waymo.
Nick Reed:You can ride in a self driving vehicle and on a commercial basis, but that's not something you can buy as a consumer.
Terry Cook:Do you think we will and are you willing to put a year on it, get to that point where we can have, there'll be cars on the road that we can go and buy, essentially an arm where, where we can have a nap while the car's driving us?
Nick Reed:I think that will almost certainly happen.
Nick Reed:I think that's very, very likely to happen in terms of putting a year on it.
Nick Reed: k we're probably deep into the: Nick Reed:I think there's a lot needs to happen in the technology to make sure the technology is capable of this legally.
Nick Reed:I think the UK is doing a really good job in setting out the legal framework, but there's still lots of questions in there.
Nick Reed: So in: Nick Reed:And that defines that an automated vehicle needs to operate at least as safely as a careful and competent human driver.
Nick Reed:But no one's got a definition of what it means to be careful and competent.
Nick Reed:We've got lots of case law where we can show that human drivers have fallen below the standard expected of a careful and competent human driver.
Nick Reed:But we don't know what that threshold is to say something is behaving in a manner that could be considered careful and competent.
Nick Reed:So there's a lot of work to do to be able to prove that a vehicle is operating in a careful and competent manner.
Nick Reed:And if I were going to go to sleep in a, in a vehicle, I'd want to know that it will definitely be driven in a competent manner.
Terry Cook:I mean, you said they've kind of started putting that legislation in is have they said, as the government said, that this is a test we will do to make sure it's driven in this way.
Nick Reed:That's the next step.
Terry Cook:Right.
Nick Reed:So they, they, they haven't set out, they've set out that, that threshold, but they haven't said how that threshold can be met.
Nick Reed:And, and that is, that's a work in progress that's coming over the next.
Terry Cook:Year because it's interesting and you touched on this before, this idea of self driving cars being safer than people because as you mentioned, that, you know, we suffer with fatigue, fatigue, fatigue and we'll get ill and, you know, we'll have a drink or we'll be tired or, you know, this kind of stuff.
Terry Cook:But computers don't, they don't get that.
Terry Cook:If we were able to click our fingers now and make every, every car on the road self driving, would that massively reduce the amount of collisions on the road overnight, do you think?
Nick Reed:Depending on the capability of the technology, yes.
Nick Reed:The potential is there for sure.
Nick Reed:You know, that ability to detect hazards and respond to them, to behave in a compliant manner.
Nick Reed:You know, a lot of the collisions that happen on our roads are because drivers haven't been complying with the rules of the road.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, there's definitely huge potential.
Nick Reed:I think, you know, in an unpredictable environment, we're going to want to encourage people to walk and to cycle.
Nick Reed:We're going to want to share our roads with cyclists, with motorbikes, with horse riders.
Nick Reed:So all these things are going to add complexity, that is things that automated vehicles will have to be able to manage safely.
Nick Reed:So, you know, we could completely eliminate collisions.
Nick Reed:That's the ambition.
Nick Reed:It's not going to happen overnight.
Nick Reed:It's going to take some work.
Nick Reed:But again, I think the role of instructors in bringing up that standard of driving performance, you know, the law says careful and competent.
Nick Reed:Now, a vehicle could be careful, it could avoid all crashes, but if it's avoiding crashes by centimeters or millimeters, that doesn't feel like it's behaving in a competent manner.
Nick Reed:And that ability to understand what it means to drive in a manner that's sympathetic to the actions and desires of other road users is really important.
Nick Reed:And I think instructors can really help with that.
Terry Cook:I mean, it's crazy where we are, it's crazy that we're thinking this, this technology is coming, but it's also crazy the technology we've got now.
Terry Cook:I mean, I decide whether to say this not, but I will.
Terry Cook:I always think back to the film I Robot and how.
Terry Cook:I don't think you've seen that.
Terry Cook:But whether the robot decides which life to save, depending on the percentage of risk they've got of drowning or whatever it is.
Terry Cook:And it's, it's nuts.
Terry Cook:But do you think there's, do you think this is remote reported properly in the media?
Terry Cook:Now?
Terry Cook:I don't necessarily mean sort of trade media if you like, because I think that's quite good with this stuff because it's, it's our niche, but in the broader media, do you think that this stuff is reported properly?
Nick Reed:Reported properly is a tricky phrase there, Terry, and I'll tell you for why.
Nick Reed:Because it makes me think of the smart motorway debate, right?
Nick Reed:So smart motorways are statistically the safest roads in the country.
Nick Reed:But if you asked someone on the street what they felt about smart motorways, they might have a different perspective.
Nick Reed:And a lot of that is because of the coverage that they've had in the press.
Nick Reed:And I can completely understand that.
Nick Reed:You know, the incidents that have happened are, you know, terrifying that some, some tragedies have certainly happened and we need to prevent those in future.
Nick Reed:Now that could happen with automated driving, right?
Nick Reed:So automated vehicles, they might be, let's say, 99% safer than, than a human driven vehicle, but if that 1% of crashes that happen is things that a human driver would easily have avoided and it happens in completely unacceptable circumstances, that will get huge coverage.
Nick Reed:You know, the bus queue of children waiting for the school bus.
Nick Reed:If that was the collision that happened, that would be, of course, hugely tragic, but it would set back the industry by many, many years.
Nick Reed:So, you know, that's part of making sure that these vehicles behave in a manner that is truly careful and competent.
Nick Reed:And so these kind of crashes don't happen.
Nick Reed:And the ones that do happen, we can explain that it was for good reasons, it was because it was avoiding something else that would have been even worse.
Nick Reed:And being able to do that through data is where we need to get to do.
Terry Cook:You know, I liken this because we.
Terry Cook:We recorded an episode earlier this season around electric vehicles and one of the points we were talking about there was, was fires in electric cars and how there's to least the best of my knowledge, has never been death as a result of firing electric vehicle.
Terry Cook:But there are, I think it was 26 last year in the UK and it's in combustion engine cars.
Terry Cook:Sorry.
Terry Cook:And the first time that happens in electric vehicle, I can just imagine the media coverage and I think that that's kind of what I'm thinking with this.
Terry Cook:You know, when we get those autonomous vehicles that go wrong, the media coverage is going to be nuts.
Terry Cook:But when we look at the media coverage that happens to the five people that die every day on the UK roads anyway, now it'll.
Terry Cook:It'll be like chalk and cheese.
Terry Cook:Do you think?
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:And this is the point about the difference between perception and reality.
Nick Reed:You know, we want the reality to be true, but it's important that the perception is, is reflective of the reality as well, because perceptions drive behavior.
Nick Reed:And I'm sure you know your listeners will be familiar with seeing motorways that have been converted to all lane running, drivers tending to stick to lanes 2, 3 and 4 and not go into one.
Nick Reed:And they sort of informally created a hard shoulder because of that perception of risk and perception of wanting that safe harbor.
Nick Reed:So yeah, we need to make sure that.
Nick Reed:And there's a, there's a role for education in making sure people are aware of the safety benefits that could come.
Nick Reed:And let's be clear about this, they're not guaranteed and we need to make sure that that is truly the case but to make sure those perceptions match up to reality.
Nick Reed:And we've got really good stories.
Nick Reed:I think people don't necessarily buy into stats, they buy into stories and how they feel about a new technology or innovation.
Nick Reed:And we've got lots of good stories that explain how automated vehicles are helping to keep us safe.
Terry Cook:I want to touch back on one other thing you said previously before I completely forget because you mentioned about the idea of getting more people on buses and public transport and walking, cycling, that type of stuff.
Terry Cook:I know that's something you do a lot of research and work into as well.
Terry Cook:And I mean just today like 10 minutes before we started recording, I was scrolling Facebook and in my community group there was a massive thread about the queue, the regular queue of traffic at a satellites.
Terry Cook:And it was fascinating to me watching all these people complaining about it, about how they're stuck in it and how they can reduce it.
Terry Cook:And I'm thinking you're the problem.
Terry Cook:Everyone queuing in this is the problem.
Terry Cook:We can't magically make fall ins appear.
Terry Cook:The only way we're going to reduce that traffic is by being less often in a car.
Terry Cook:And as an instructor this is something that I found hard to get my head around because it's.
Terry Cook:And to be fair, it's something I've started talking a little bit about my lessons.
Terry Cook:I would be really interested in your thoughts on this because as an instructor I want to teach people to drive.
Terry Cook:I want them to have that as an option.
Terry Cook:But I'm also trying to encourage them more to consider when they should be driving.
Terry Cook:So I'm just wondering your thoughts now.
Terry Cook:Do you think that's something we could be beginning to lesson source discussions around should you drive to the shops or should we walk if we can?
Nick Reed:Yeah, that's a great point, Terry and my.
Nick Reed:One of my ex TRL colleagues, Sean Hellman, who's still at the lab, he used to use a slide with a picture of a motorway.
Nick Reed:And in the motorway you can see cars, you can see a coach, you can see a truck.
Nick Reed:And he would ask the audience, who are the safest road users in this picture?
Nick Reed:And of course, it was a trick question because in the background of the picture there's a train.
Nick Reed:And the safest road users are the people using the train to get from their origin to their destination.
Nick Reed:So, so, yeah, that, that is a really important point and I think about the post as well.
Nick Reed:You say you're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.
Nick Reed:It's a really important point.
Nick Reed:That said, you know, we are not going to eliminate driving overnight for sure.
Nick Reed:There will always be people who need to drive for whatever reason.
Nick Reed:And we'll also need professional drivers, the bus drivers, the coach drivers, the truck drivers, taxi drivers as well, for many years to come.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, it's about the right tool for the right job based on the circumstances that are available to you.
Nick Reed:And I think you're absolutely right, you know, educating people about when it's right to drive.
Nick Reed:You know, do you really need to drive that half mile to the shop to pick up milk late at night?
Nick Reed:Could you get a bike?
Nick Reed:Could you walk?
Nick Reed:If you don't feel safe, maybe it is right to drive.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, make the right tool for the right job based on your circumstances.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
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Terry Cook:But for now, let's get stuck back into the show.
Terry Cook:Something else you said earlier as well that I've heard you mention actually in a previous podcast and I know very little about it, I'll be honest.
Terry Cook:And it was the Blue Cruise.
Terry Cook:Can you tell me a little bit about this?
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:So Blue Cruise is a system on Ford vehicles.
Nick Reed:I think it's only on the Mustang Mach E at the moment.
Nick Reed:It's a subscription service and it's the only, as far as I'm aware, in the uk, they only hands free automated driving system that is requires you to be alert and attentive, but it will do adaptive cruise control.
Nick Reed:So it's adjusting the speed of the vehicle and it will keep you in lane as well.
Nick Reed:So you can truly sit back, but the vehicle will be monitoring you to make sure you are paying attention and you're not switching off, starting to attend to your phone or whatever else you do need to be attentive and monitoring what the vehicle's doing and ready to resume control should that become necessary.
Terry Cook:Is that something that's going to become more common in more vehicles as we go along?
Nick Reed:I think, I think yes.
Nick Reed:I think it's a feature that people will come to appreciate in terms of feeling relaxed, in terms of feeling safe, that the vehicle is going to respond to the sorts of hazards that are around and it's part of that stepping stone towards higher levels of automation in future.
Nick Reed:But one thing that does slightly concern me, and it's something that I think is underappreciated, but it's also very relevant to your audience here, I think, is if we've got vehicles that are responsible for detecting and responding to hazards, do we start to see some level of skill degradation in the people who are at the wheel.
Nick Reed:So you've been in your blue cruise vehicle for three years and then you go back to a different vehicle, your lease ends and you get into a different vehicle that doesn't have this feature.
Nick Reed:Will you be as aware and able to respond to hazards that emerge on the motorway if you've been allowing the vehicle to do that task for you?
Nick Reed:So I think that's something we need to be aware of and something to keep a watch for that there isn't this kind of skill degradation as we do more and more automation of the driving task.
Terry Cook:Well, it's a good point because it makes me think back to again, the presentation, the course you create for Copilot, because another interesting thing you said on that was when ABS was first brought in, you found, or it was found, that drivers were driving too close to the car in front because they felt almost Too safe or more safe because of the abs?
Terry Cook:So is that kind of what you mean, almost breeding complacency or potentially breeding complacency because of those safety features?
Nick Reed:Yeah, we're interesting folk, aren't we, humans?
Nick Reed:We find these.
Nick Reed:These sort of ways to game the system.
Nick Reed:I suppose we can think of it.
Nick Reed:And for sure, any new system that comes in, people will test it, people will push the boundaries.
Nick Reed:And it's for engineers and human factors, people like myself to think about what are the ways in which people might game the system and how can we use that to our advantage, actually, how can we use that to make sure people are incentivized to do the right things as far as we're concerned in terms of safety and enjoyment of driving and not finding loopholes that are ways they can exploit the system or generate risk that we were trying to avoid?
Terry Cook:I mean, it does work.
Terry Cook:You know, I've spoke about this recently, but I know that in my car, when I've been driving for two hours, I get a little alert.
Terry Cook:You know, it flashes up on the screen and it beeps and it's like, oh, you know, it's a.
Terry Cook:Take a break.
Terry Cook:I think it's somewhat along those lines.
Terry Cook:I don't see it often because I normally take a break after 90 minutes, but it just.
Terry Cook:Those little things kick us out of what we're doing.
Terry Cook:But that kind of brings me on to another thing that I wanted to mention, which is touch screens, because I know that we're getting more manufacturers now.
Terry Cook:Let me try and get the phrase this right.
Terry Cook:Tell me if I'm wrong, by the way.
Terry Cook:We're getting more manufacturers now that are kind of reducing the things that are available on touchscreens and making them more switches and buttons.
Terry Cook:Because we've become, again, a custom.
Terry Cook:Sorry.
Terry Cook:We're now having to go through all these different screens to get to one thing, whereas we can just press a button for it while we're driving.
Terry Cook:Am I right in that?
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:So you can imagine that the vehicle designers welcomed touch screens as an interface because it allowed them to put masses of functionality into a defined area that looks cool.
Nick Reed:So you've got the aesthetic benefit, but also the complexity, the sophistication you can have within the vehicle through this single interface.
Nick Reed:Plus, people are familiar with smartphones now.
Nick Reed:They're used to navigating touch screens to access functionality.
Nick Reed:But the difference with a smartphone is that is typically your focus when you're driving.
Nick Reed:Your focus needs to be out there on the environment around you, your mirrors and everything.
Nick Reed:Else.
Nick Reed:So marrying those two things that desire to add functionality into the vehicle and to do it in a way that is attractive versus the demands of being a driver is the real challenge.
Nick Reed:And my understanding is the NCAP tests, the Euro NCAP tests, they are going to move towards some of the key functions being in manual switches, again, rather than through the touchscreen, because, you know, we are.
Nick Reed:We have multiple senses and if we can do things through different sensory modalities through touch, much easier to do that with physical buttons.
Nick Reed:It's.
Nick Reed:It's more compatible with maintaining attention on the driving task rather than having to switch your visual focus towards something that doesn't have that touch feedback through the.
Nick Reed:Through the touchscreen.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, I think that's a welcome step, to be honest with you.
Nick Reed:I like touch screens.
Nick Reed:I like that you can have all that functionality, but let's manage it in a way that keeps it simple, keeps it straightforward.
Nick Reed:It allows the driver to interact in a way that minimizes that distraction and allows them to maintain attention on driving.
Terry Cook:So I'm always honest with this stuff because I had a moment, shall we say, with this earlier this year.
Terry Cook:It was back in May and I can remember it crystal clear because I was with another driving instructor, Les Hopkinson, and I press him on the touchscreen while I was driving and this officer almost bited my hand away.
Terry Cook:He's like, I'll do it.
Terry Cook:And he took over and it just made me realize, I wonder how long I've been doing that.
Terry Cook:And it's not illegal, you know, to press the sat nav or whatever.
Terry Cook:But it made me think I am now taking my focus of what I was doing and it's.
Terry Cook:Do you think.
Terry Cook:I mean, we come in very slightly off topic here, but do you think that's the mobile phone culture of, you got your mobile phone, you sat on yourself, you got your mobile phone there, if it beeps, you pick it up.
Terry Cook:Do you think it's almost the same thing with a touchscreen?
Terry Cook:You got your touchscreen there, if you see somebody, you press it.
Nick Reed:Well, I mean, of course, with Android Auto and the interfaces that are linking between the car and the phone, that is almost extending the mobile phone interface into the vehicle.
Nick Reed:And again, you know, exactly as you say, that sort of laser focus the smartphone has in keeping your attention is now permeating into the vehicle as well.
Nick Reed:So again, that this is.
Nick Reed:This has to be managed very carefully and the manufacturers know about this stuff and they recognize that they have to do this.
Nick Reed:At the same time, they also want to sell vehicles that are attractive and give their customers this functionality, but it has to be done in a safe way.
Nick Reed:Ultimately, automation will enable us to do that and engage however we want.
Nick Reed:We'll be able to watch movies in the car, but we are not there yet.
Nick Reed:And.
Nick Reed:Yeah, so managing that process is, is what we need to do.
Terry Cook:We spoke a little bit about the public perception, if you like, general public perception, and the feeling I get, especially with the, let's say, the older generation, my generation and above, they're not always welcoming of this technology.
Terry Cook:You know, I think of speaking to my dad, who was in his 60s, and then my nephew.
Terry Cook:I just talked to driver who was 18, and they've got very different differing opinions.
Terry Cook:But it does seem like there's a lot of the general public that struggles to buy into this new, especially safety technology in cars.
Terry Cook:Is that something you're seeing or is it anecdotal for me?
Terry Cook:And if so, why do you think that is?
Nick Reed:No, absolutely seeing it.
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:So if, you know, I read the car press and look at reviews and things and certainly seeing the reviewers having some degree of antipathy towards these systems as being nannying, being too intrusive in the driving experience.
Nick Reed:And I think what that reflects is, you know, that the stats, everyone thinks they're above average as a driver.
Nick Reed:And you know what I think about this.
Nick Reed:And, you know, some days I'm a 10 out of 10, some days I'm a 2 out of 10.
Nick Reed:I'm certainly, you know, I look back, this is something I'm fortunate to know.
Nick Reed:Paul Ripley, you know, very famous driving instructor, someone who is described as God's chauffeur.
Nick Reed:And he.
Nick Reed:He's something that's.
Nick Reed:He said that stuck with me is about reflecting on every drive you take look back and think about, were there things you could have done differently, Were there things you could have done better and, and how you might do better in future, you know, did you really need to overtake that cyclist before the traffic lights?
Nick Reed:Did you really need to pull out into that gap that wasn't really there?
Nick Reed:Those kind of things.
Nick Reed:And what these systems are doing is almost forcing us to reflect on what we're doing.
Nick Reed:So.
Nick Reed:Beep, beep.
Nick Reed:You've missed something there, haven't you, driver?
Nick Reed:There's something you should have done differently or better.
Nick Reed:So that kind of being forced to confront your own shortcomings as a driver is probably why some people find them to be, know, unwelcome, shall we say?
Nick Reed:But I think that, again, that's, that's perhaps the role for the instructor here is to help people understand how those systems are helping and supporting and not there.
Nick Reed:Sort of to criticize you as an individual driver.
Nick Reed:Now, and just one final comment on that.
Nick Reed:It's really important then that the system works in the way the drivers are expecting it to, because if it's doing things that you can see are definitely wrong, then that's when people start to lose trust in those systems and find them to be intrusive and not living up to expectations.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, really important that the systems truly do work in the way people expect.
Nick Reed:But then when they do work, people kind of can accept why they've chose to step in and the benefit they've provided.
Terry Cook:You know, that's a really interesting point because my car has.
Terry Cook:I always get this terminal wrong emergency brake assist.
Terry Cook:So it's got the sensor at the front that detects something up ahead.
Terry Cook:And it's only ever kicked in once, I believe, and unnecessarily.
Terry Cook:But it thought it was correct.
Terry Cook:I think the road was bending and there was a car that came really quickly from the left.
Terry Cook:So the sensor picked up the car coming.
Terry Cook:Think it was coming in front of the car and it kicked in.
Terry Cook:Now, the student driving on that occasion then didn't buy into that at all because it's coming at an appropriate time.
Terry Cook:But every other student that I've spoke to about it loves the idea of it.
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Terry Cook:So I suppose you're right.
Terry Cook:But again, that's part of my job and our job as instructors to look at why that happened.
Terry Cook:You know, potentially report it and then talk.
Terry Cook:Talk through with the students to get that banging.
Terry Cook:Because the one thing we don't want people doing is getting these cars with all these safety features and then turning off the safety features.
Terry Cook:And is that something that's happening more than you'd like?
Nick Reed:Yes.
Nick Reed:I mean, I am aware of serious, serious crashes where the crash maybe wouldn't been avoided, but certainly would have been mitigated had a system on the vehicle been switched on and operating in the way it was designed to.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, that.
Nick Reed:That point about people losing faith, losing trust in the systems and then switching them off is really, really important because then we lose all the benefit and then.
Nick Reed:And then, you know, even worse, your vehicle is carrying around the weight of this system.
Nick Reed:There's the fuel penalty and all the kind of inefficiencies of that without getting the benefit of it.
Nick Reed:So, yeah, really important a.
Nick Reed:That the system is there and that it.
Nick Reed:But then that it also works in the way people expect and come to trust it and use it effectively.
Terry Cook:And I suppose if you go and buy that car that's got the five star euro and cap safety rate and then turn off the safety features is then no longer five star.
Terry Cook:But I think that kind of ties in quite nice because I'm going to ask you about that.
Terry Cook:Can you tell us a little bit about this euro end cap star rating, how that works and maybe what we should be looking for?
Nick Reed:Yeah, so I mean Euro NCAP star ratings are about the protection the vehicle offers to the vehicle occupants and increasingly to other road users.
Nick Reed:So it started out as sort of physical crash tests.
Nick Reed:How well does your vehicle stand up to the impacts it might encounter in a collision and how does it protect the occupants?
Nick Reed:And that moved into your just pure kind of structural strength rigidity of the chassis of the frame to systems within the vehicle like airbags and seat belt pretensioners that help in the event of a collision to make sure the injuries are minimized.
Nick Reed:But what we're seeing now is the Euro NCAP ratings moving more towards systems that help avoid crashes in the first place.
Nick Reed:So the emergency braking systems, the pedestrian avoidance, the cyclist avoidance, those kind of systems that can detect and protect other road users are increasingly part of the star rating system.
Nick Reed:And that will continue.
Nick Reed:Things will continue in that vein, I think to move more towards avoidance rather than only that protective aspect.
Terry Cook:This might be an obvious question.
Terry Cook:So Paul, this 21, listen, if it is, but is the, is that star rating something we should be really considering when buying a car?
Terry Cook:Should we really be prioritizing the highest star rating we could get?
Nick Reed:Yeah, it's a great point.
Nick Reed:People have to cut their cloth right, according to their, to their means.
Nick Reed:But you know, that safety factor is certainly something I would be considering.
Nick Reed:One of the features you weigh up, you know that is it the right size, is it the performance you're expecting, what's the interface is like in the vehicle?
Nick Reed:But that fundamental, you know, when the chips are down and you really need it, that is the thing that might be the difference between, you know, serious injury and mild injury or even worse.
Nick Reed:So, so yeah, I think it has to be in there.
Nick Reed:And the Euro NCAP website is very good.
Nick Reed:You can look back to the star ratings that were awarded to vehicles into history, you know, back into the first ratings that were issued.
Nick Reed:Now of course the rating system has gotten stricter.
Nick Reed:So a five star vehicle today is obviously much safer than a five star vehicle from 20 years ago.
Nick Reed:But you can look at the relative performance of that vehicle at the time you're that you're looking at and see is it one that was considered as safe as it could be at the time.
Nick Reed:And I think that has to be a consideration for anyone choosing their vehicle.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And you mentioned before about moving from the occupancy protection to prevention rather than protection.
Terry Cook:And you also touched before you mentioned the phrase of the nanny state, the idea of people feeling like the nanny state of road safety.
Terry Cook:But again, going back to the presentation you did for co pilot, one of the most interesting parts for me was when you put two graphs up and it showed the decline in road death with like an overlying graph of the introduction of different technology and it almost mirrors it.
Terry Cook:So when I think of a nanny state, if you like, that that's where it's necessary because it shows directly that the road death correlates directly to technology, doesn't it?
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:And there's a, there's an interesting kind of relationship between the regulators and the manufacturers.
Nick Reed:Right.
Nick Reed:The manufacturers want to sell as many cars as possible.
Nick Reed:The regulators want to keep the public safe.
Nick Reed:And so the regulators, they want to introduce as many of these systems that they can.
Nick Reed:But it has to be done in a way that makes sure the manufacturers can continue to sell vehicles and do so in a cost effective way that, you know, if all the manufacturers go out of business, then that, that's not a good position either.
Nick Reed:So a huge amount of work is done.
Nick Reed:And again, that's something that my colleagues at TRL are very experienced in doing is around what are the systems that we can introduce and what will the cost benefit be in terms of road safety that making these systems mandatory will have on the level of safety on our roads.
Nick Reed:And, and so we get into this collaboration between regulators and manufacturers to show what are the systems that are going to deliver that safety on the roads for us.
Nick Reed:And over time things get better and better.
Nick Reed:And certainly the statistics bear that out.
Nick Reed:There's lots more we still need to do.
Nick Reed:There's certainly more that instructors can be doing around understanding of these systems to make sure we do truly get the most out of them.
Nick Reed:For sure.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:And I was pondering this while we came on today because I was, I was looking at the save system and the five different components of it and try to think which one has the biggest potential to reduce the amount of road death.
Terry Cook:And I look at the way we teach people to drive and I would actually say it's that, but I think that the bigger impact from that will take a lot longer to come into fruition.
Terry Cook:Whereas when we look at Something like the safe, safe vehicles.
Terry Cook:I think that's the one that's going to have the biggest impact in a short time frame.
Terry Cook:I'll be interested in your opinion on that.
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:So your listeners are fully aware of the safe system, I'm sure, but we're talking about safe vehicles, safe roads, safe speeds, safe users and post crash, post crash care.
Nick Reed:So how do you manage the aftermath of an incident?
Nick Reed:So across those five categories, that is the called the safe system and that is an approach that was developed in Sweden in the 90s with the aim of eliminating death and serious injury.
Nick Reed:Comes on the premise that no one should die or suffer serious injury in going about their day to day business using the roads.
Nick Reed:And yeah, a lot of my work for National Highways has been thinking about what are the best interventions that National Highways could introduce using this safe system approach.
Nick Reed:Now the national highways, they look after our strategic roads.
Nick Reed:So they can do a lot with safe roads and they can do a lot with safe speeds.
Nick Reed:But in the other categories, safe vehicles, safe users, post crash, it's more about collaborating with other stakeholders, other organizations, other participants in the road system to get them to play their part.
Nick Reed:And certainly I would see instructors playing a huge part in that safe road user category, making sure people who come to the roads are, you know, fully trained, they've thought about their vehicle, you know, doing those, the vehicle checks.
Nick Reed:And a lot of incidents on the network are down to tires, under inflated tires or low tread or whatever else.
Nick Reed:Seeing a lot of aquaplaning with the weather we've been having lately.
Nick Reed:So yeah, I think there's huge things that can be done in that safe user category.
Nick Reed:Ultimately the system is a social system.
Nick Reed:It is driven by people and it's people that make it safe.
Nick Reed:Right.
Nick Reed:And if we can make sure they're doing the right things, then that's a huge part of making sure everyone gets to their destination safely.
Terry Cook:I love the answer and I also appreciate explaining the safe system because I probably should have done that.
Terry Cook:So thank you for picking up my slack there, but I want to kind of finish off with to ask your thoughts on the learner's first car because I will hold my hands up here again and be honest.
Terry Cook:Probably up until the start of this year, my advice was always buy the cheapest car you can.
Terry Cook:You know, it was the advice I was given by the cheapest car you can get the cheapest insurance, drive for two years, then buy somewhat better, so you got cheaper insurance.
Terry Cook:My advice now is more around not necessarily buying the most expensive, but Buying the safest car you can.
Terry Cook:So I SUPOSE It's a two part question.
Terry Cook:What, what advice would you give to us to give to learners around their first car and is there any maybe safety features in particular that you would be recommending that they get in that first car?
Nick Reed:Yeah, that's a great question.
Nick Reed:So it's, most cars today will have ABS I think, anti lock braking system.
Nick Reed:Of course that's going to be very helpful in maneuvering in a tricky situation.
Nick Reed:I have been looking into this a little bit, Terry, and anyone's going to have a budget, but even in the kind of up to 5k range for a first car, some of the systems that are available now that have come through as a result of these regulations are really, really impressive.
Nick Reed:So that emergency braking system you talked about, even down to having reversing cameras and things like that as a Suzuki Swift with a lot of these features I saw recently in that kind of price bracket.
Nick Reed:So yeah, I think, you know, let's not just look at the performance figures but look into that column of the safety features that are included within the vehicle and when you're making a choice about what vehicle to buy, just factor that in.
Nick Reed:I think that's all we can do, isn't it?
Nick Reed:Don't ignore that as being an important element of your purchasing decision and I hope it isn't the case.
Nick Reed:But it might be the difference between walking away from a crash and not doing so.
Nick Reed:So yeah, I think making sure that it's part of the purchasing decision is really important and I think that's probably the role of the instructor, isn't it?
Nick Reed:To say these are the sorts of features to look out for that might be the important difference between one model or another.
Terry Cook:Yeah.
Terry Cook:But again, going back to the safe system you mentioned earlier, that's the role of safe system.
Terry Cook:So if one area fails, so if we make a mistake as a driver, the car will protect us or the road will keep us safe or the speed or that type of it.
Terry Cook:So I suppose that's where the safe system comes into it as well.
Terry Cook:But I just want to take a moment to say thank you for today.
Terry Cook:I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Terry Cook:It's, it's not necessarily gone quite the way I expected and I mean in a good way.
Terry Cook:I've fully enjoyed finding out some of this stuff.
Terry Cook:So big thank you for joining me John, to take them on.
Terry Cook:Want to tell people where they can find you if they want to find out any more.
Nick Reed:Thank you, Terry.
Nick Reed:No, I've enjoyed the conversation as well.
Nick Reed:And you're happy to come on again in future?
Nick Reed:Yeah.
Nick Reed:My name is Nick Reed and website is www.co.uk Excellent.
Terry Cook: be on the road maybe sort of: Terry Cook:But no big thank you for joining me today Nick.
Terry Cook:It's been a pleasure.
Nick Reed:Thank you Terry.
Terry Cook:So a big thank you to Dr.
Terry Cook:Nick Reed there for joining me on today's episode.
Terry Cook:I really enjoyed talking to Nick.
Terry Cook:It was a really interesting conversation.
Terry Cook:It did take a different turns what I planned initially but I enjoy that.
Terry Cook:I like that.
Terry Cook:I love it when episodes do that.
Terry Cook:And just to to make you aware, I kind of touched on it in the show there.
Terry Cook:I I first came across Nick on Co pilot.
Terry Cook:Now you'll hopefully have heard me talk about co pilot before and it's this amazing platform that's been sold by James Evans.
Terry Cook:It's not aimed at instructors but it's aimed at the road safety sector and we as instructors are part of that.
Terry Cook:Now just a reminder that as driving instructors we get a 40% discount on copilot.
Terry Cook:So again I will include a link in the show notes for this but there's some wonderful courses over there, there's some wonderful people over there, there's some wonderful resources over there.
Terry Cook:So as well as checking out what Dr.
Terry Cook:Nick Reid's got to offer, also go and check out Co pilot.
Terry Cook:But I also want to take a moment to plug the instructor podcast Premium.
Terry Cook:Let's be honest, that's what I'm doing right now.
Terry Cook:Because one of the things that I have spoken about in the premium membership lately is giving back because it's what I constantly look to do.
Terry Cook:Because that membership has never been about earning as much money as possible.
Terry Cook:That membership has always been about the more it grows, the more I can put back in, the more people sign up, the more time I will have put back in.
Terry Cook:And we've got some awesome stuff lined up for next year.
Terry Cook:So I would love if you came and tried out.
Terry Cook:There is currently a few different ways you can try it out.
Terry Cook:We have a one weeks free trial.
Terry Cook:We've got a 33% discount on your first month's payment.
Terry Cook:And just to clarify with that, when you sign up you can leave at any point.
Terry Cook:So if you do sign up and decide it's not for you, then leave.
Terry Cook:I have no problem with that.
Terry Cook:It's not going to be for everyone.
Terry Cook:But if you are a hard working driving instructor that is willing to put the time and effort in to get better, then it's definitely for you.
Terry Cook:But if you're someone that really wants to invest, you could sign up for a year.
Terry Cook:There's a 16% discount on a year's membership, so check out www.the instructorpodcast.com or use a link in the show Notes to go and find out more about the Instructor Podcast Premium.
Terry Cook:And last, but by no means least, I want to remind you about my drive time and firstly express my gratitude around the sponsoring the show.
Terry Cook:I'm always grateful and one of the privileges I've had this year was recently getting to spend a good chunk of time with Dan Hill.
Terry Cook:Now I'm getting to know Dan Hill quite well just from talking to him on Zoom and stuff like that.
Terry Cook:But we recently closed the bar.
Terry Cook:Now I don't drink, but we did, we closed the bar at the Holiday Inn in Coventry and it was an absolute delight.
Terry Cook:Getting to pick his brains and find out what goes in his brain, what goes on in his mind, and just listening to what he does for the industry and what he does for my drive time and for driving instructors is just incredible.
Terry Cook:So before we even look at how good my drive time is, I just wanted to give a shout out to Dan there.
Terry Cook:But one of the things that I really like about my drive time is that it's so functionable on the website.
Terry Cook:So you've got the app and you can do, you know, everything on there you need to your students, but you can also come home and whack it on computer and get stuck in.
Terry Cook:And I find that so much easier to sit there and type things out rather than doing it on my phone or whatever.
Terry Cook:So the fact that we've got those options there, I absolutely love that aspect of my drive time and I would highly encourage you to go and check it out and you can find that@mydrivetime.co.uk but for now, let's just keep raising standards.
Terry Cook:The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.
